 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: J B Lansing
Date: 2006-02-15 16:26
I recently bought a resin Kohlert Alto, made in Germany, on Ebay. It did not come with a mouth piece, but nothing daunted I found a Selmer #2 on Ebay and ordered it. The mouth piece just arrived and it does not fit The neck opening is about 23.3mm and the mouth piece is 24.5mm across the cork and 23.5 across the mouth peice itself. The mouth piec is "new old stock" and the label indicates it is for alto. I am new to altos so I do not know which is the nonstandard part. Or where I so obviously went wrong. I would dearly lke some help please.
J B Lansing
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-02-15 16:36
Have the mouthpiece tenon turned down to 23.2mm so it's a good but not loose fit, and either replace the cork or sand it down so it fits easily.
What is the bore size on this alto? I asume the Selmer mouthpiece bore is around 18mm, but I suspect the Kohlert alto might have a narrower bore than French altos (which are around 18mm).
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2006-02-15 16:39
I have renovated/played/owned many Kohlert alto and bass clarinets from the 1940s through late 1950s, and every one of them has had an undersized mouthpiece socket (relative to modern mouthpieces). The solution is to have the mouthpiece socket bore on the neck opened up. It's easy to do yourself with a Dremel-type motor and a small drum sanding wheel -- just go around and around the inside of the socket as smoothly and evenly as possible, removing metal until the fit is snug but doesn't require a herculean effort (or tearing of the cork) to accomplish. It's the instrument, not the mouthpiece.
By the way, I used to really like your JBL speakers, especially the good old L100s. 
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Author: Bnewbs
Date: 2006-02-15 16:39
I have a Kohlert (wood) alto with a Selmer C* and it has always fit fine. It sounds like more than just sanding down the cork. I would recommend looking for a different mouthpiece. I remember Bays being a little wide for mine so cross that off (phenominal projection though), a Grabner or a Vandoren may work. Also try a new C* and just see whats what. I am not sure who makes aftermarket necks, and each maker probably has different specs, so I dont know how possible that is.
Ben
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Author: J B Lansing
Date: 2006-02-15 17:48
Measuring at the bottom of the body with vernier calipers (all I have) I get 17.3mm The mouth piece is 17.6mm the neck about 17.5mm (not round at the male end). You suggestion about opening the neck to fit the mouth piece is a good one, but before I do.... Do the dimentions sound right for an alto mouthpiece. My concern is that someone put a base mouthpiec in an alto box. I don't want to do anything irrversable. Turning the mouthpiece might leave the walls a little thin and if it IS a bass mouthpiece its volume would not be correct (I think)
Its funny, I have used this handle all over the internet and this is the first site where I have had several people recognize the route. Audiophiles Unite!
J B Lansing
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2006-02-15 18:29
1) A bass mouthpiece won't even come close to fitting -- it's WAY larger.
2) The amount of material you'll be removing will certainly not leave the mouthpiece socket wall too thin--there's plenty of beef there.
Be bold! Grind that sucker!
*******Open-reel tape forever!**********
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Author: J B Lansing
Date: 2006-02-15 21:48
David,
Thank you! I took the plung and ground out the neck. It didn't take all that much. Of course I now have a black cork on the mouthpiece from the fitting :-) I just am not familiar enough with altos and basses to be sure of myself. Now if the pads I ordered will come in, I can try it out.
Thanks again
J B
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Author: Shorthand
Date: 2006-02-15 21:49
I concurr with David. I found some sanding drums in good sizes at Harbor Freight and widened my bass's mouthpiece socket.
If you shave down the mouthpiece, you'll pull your hair out when it comes time to try new ones.
Also, David is AFAIK the foremost expert on these instruments these days, so if you need it restored, etc., he's who I'd go to first.
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Author: Shorthand
Date: 2006-02-15 21:53
Wrap paper around the cork, insert it back into the socket (it will take some pressure) and most of the goo should come off onto the paper.
You can also use a little mild detergent - just make sure to get a good cork grease (like Dr. Henderson's) to rejuvinate the cork.
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Author: J B Lansing
Date: 2006-02-15 22:02
Hi Shorthand,
Yes I have read a number of Davids post on Kohlert Altos and Basses I was hoping he would reply. I am trying my hand at restoring this alto. It is not wood and has a one piece body and a fairly complex register/Bb key arrangement. I understand David has developed some modifications to this area to improve the Bb. I don't, at this point, know how good or bad it is on this instrument, as it needs some pads. And of course I have never played an alto so am probably not a good judge. This is so much fun. (seriously :-) )
J B
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Author: Shorthand
Date: 2006-02-15 22:37
David would know better, but almost all alto clarinet register keys are of the type where one pad opens for throat Bb and another for all upper register notes.
While this is true also of many bass clarinets, it is not characteristic of professional ones, which use the lower vent as the register vent for the lower clarion notes (D# - B) in addition to Bb, including the Kohlerts.
There are two ways to structure the mechanism for an alto. The first is to actuate the register key pads off of the throat A key. The other is to use the thumb F/C key (or sometimes the pointer finger F#). The Kohlert Bass I have uses the A.
From there, what usually happens is that the register key is pretty heavily sprung and holds both pads closed. Depressing that key will allow one of the two pads to open. Both are be sprung to open if left free of interference, but the Bb vent will be held closed by an even stronger spring that you counteract with the other key mentioned above, which will then force the register closed and remove the spring pressure on the Bb vent pad. The result is that that key will have a very heavy feel.
Actually the Kohlert Bass register key design is pretty simple and accesible compared to what Selmer usually does with a see-saw on the register key, or the hidden pivot lever in the G. LeBlanc designs (Vitos, LeBlancs, some Yamahas, etc.)
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2006-02-16 02:01
Thanks for the flattery, y'all -- if my head swells any more I won't be able to fit out the door --- anyway, JBL, an easy way to remove the black crud from your mouthpiece cork is to lather it up with lots of cork grease, then wipe it off with a paper towel (rub it hard) -- do that two or three times and you should end up with a nice clean cork, as well as a bit of grease in the pores of the cork for future lubrication needs.
As for the Kohlert instruments, the altos and basses have identical register mechanisms (the ones I've seen, anyway). They're not bad, better than most as Shorthand notes above.
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Author: J B Lansing
Date: 2006-02-16 02:45
Ok, let me discribe how I think the regester/Bb key work on this instrument. This may be exactly what you described Shorthand, here it is in my own words. Both upper and lower pads are sprung to open if not prevented in some way. Pressing the regester key and any or all of left thumb ; left 1;left 2 open the upper pad. Pressing the A key or the left 3, closes the upper pad and opens the lower pad. so it appears that the upper pad is open only when playing clarian A, B, C. Once you go to D the upper closes and the lower opens. The same is true going down G, F etc. I cannot see anyother changes although I have most of the lower keys removed at the moment.
Thanks to you both about cleaning cork. I kind of used both approaches and cork in fine.
J B
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Author: Shorthand
Date: 2006-02-16 14:49
I think you have it backwards. Lower vent for D#-B + throat Bb and upper vent for E on up.
This is what is called a true double register vent. That is there are two separate register vents for different parts of the clarion range. (Ideally, it would always be 1/3 the way between the mouthpiece and the first open hole, so this approximates that effect.)
This is the first I've heard of a double register vent on an Alto clarinet. As I mentioned before this is pretty common on Basses but by no means universal, and I thought the consensus amongst makers is that it wasn't necessary on Altos.
A double register vent mechanism is always characterized by two bridge keys between the upper and lower joints. One for the normal Bb/Eb 1/1 fingering and the other as part of the register key mechanism.
The above description will still apply, except that the throat A key and the RH ring finger key (D/G) will now BOTH activate the lower vent when the register key is depressed. Though the linkage from the A to the register key mechansim and the loger linkage from the D/G key across the tenon to the register key have particular issues that can manifest (details below), they actually are both supposed to do the exact same thing as far as the RK mechanism is concerned. (Think of this when troubleshooting.)
The best way to test these mechanisms is to watch them carefully as you depress the register key and then alternately depress the A key or the D/G key and watch the pads swap. Make sure they seal well. There should be 5 adjustment screws in the whole mechansim - in a horn this old they may not all be in good shape.
Common issues with the A-key linkage is that the corks are under a lot of stress and tend to wiggle out of place. Also, the "pickup" on the A key can be bent easily in a fall or just jiggling in the case.
The long linkage to the D/G key can have a range of issues but in my experience is actually less succeptible to bending than the A key linkage. Its big but its simpler in many ways than the A key - it doesn't turn nearly as many corners. Alignment of the tenon will be key and the bridge key can get bent, but its pretty easy to bend back.
Beyond that get a feel for it. These mechanisms are actually very similar from one instrument to the next, so a good (and I do mean good) local woodwind repair guy won't get very confused at all. The Kohlert mechanisms are much more transparent than the LeBlancs, for example, which have a hidden lateral lever wrapped around a post (sometimes a double lever.) There is little more I can explain in text.
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Author: J B Lansing
Date: 2006-02-16 15:30
This does not seem to be quite the way this on works. There is a separate shaft that runs above the normal forefinge and middle finger shaft found on a Bb clarinet. This shaft is connected to the pad for the ring finger and has an arm that runs under the A key, so that if either the ring finger or the A key is depressed, along with the regester key the lower pad opens. If niether is depressed, when the regester key is depressed the upper pad opens. Opening the lower pad always closes the upper. The bridge mechanism only rotates the normal shaft and so the right hand does not have any effect on the opening of the pads that is different than the middle finger of the left hand. I should say I have the right hand keywork off for repadding, so I can not be absolutely sure, but I see only the one bridge mechanism. (The body on this instrument is one piece so there is no middle joint.)
This all seem strange, in that this arrangement would mean the 1/1 Bb would open the upper hole, but the full bohem left had 1/3 Bb, would open the lower hole and obvously give a different result. I guess I will have to wait until it is all reassembled to and try it.
J B
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Author: Shorthand
Date: 2006-02-16 16:00
JB, try to remember to specify the upper/lower joint or right hand or left hand. It makes it easier to understand.
You have described a double register key mechanism - with two separate register/12th vents. On a Bass with a middle tenon that long shaft from D/G up would have a bridge key linkage in the middle for ovbious reasons. That's all I meant in terms of double bridge key - not a forked or Full Boehm type.
Having a single joint instrument eliminates that problem point. (I believe Dave S's hard rubber Kohlert bass is one joint IIRC.) Kohlert was one of the few companies that put just as much care into their synthetic instruments as their wooden ones.
As mentioned above, Throat Bb + clarion B-D# will use the lower register vent and the rest of the clarion and altissimo (everything from Clarion E on up) range will use the upper (smaller, more traditional) register vent. There are weak springs that want to open the register pads and strong springs holding them shut until one is allowed to open by the right combination of keys counteracting the strong springs.
If this is not the case, we'll certainly need good pictures to figure it out. Though common on basses, this is the first I've ever heard of this system on an alto.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-02-16 18:00
JB,
If you know how to seat cork pads, use them for both pads on the speaker/throat Bb mechanism - they're less likely to stick as opposed to leather pads, and skin pads don't last well against metal bushes.
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Author: J B Lansing
Date: 2006-02-16 18:14
Sorry about the lack of hand designation. All the first part of the description refered to the left hand. The right hand has a key system that, except the the closed finger pads and individual movements, looks much like my Bb clarinet.
This instrument appears to use the lower register vent starting with the clarion B up to the G; at the A the lower vent closes and the upper opens; above High C the vents switch, up to the altissamo G, ie. as long as the ring finger of the left hand is down. I have gone over the mechanism and as far as I can tell it is assembled correctly with all the springs in place and on the correct sides of the pins. Judging from the adjustment scews all the forces are being applied in the correct direction. Thanks for your patients :-)
J B
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Author: J B Lansing
Date: 2006-02-16 21:12
Chris P, It already has cork pads on the two register vents and the trill keys. I get the impression it was well used and adjusted and then in disuse for quite a while as all key were dull and some rust on shafts and pins. The shafts had highly viscous (dried up) oil on them. I ordered leather pads to replace the missing ones. All that are there, are good. I am really looking forward to getting it reassembled and playing.
J B
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2006-02-16 22:02
Some altos (such as JBL's it would appear) had the second register vent opening from clarion A and above (rather than Eb and above as with basses), thus no second bridge mechanism is needed -- just a short linkage from the l.h. ring stack. And Shorthand is correct that Kohlert's hard-rubber bass and alto clarinets (with one-piece bodues) were made with just as much care as the equivalent two-piece wood-bodied versions. In fact, other than the continuous body and lack of articulated G#, the hard-rubber Kohlert altos and basses are IDENTICAL in design and construction to the contemporary wood models, and play identically. Furthermore, I'm now playing on an all-metal Kohlert bass clarinet (two-piece body, very ruggedly made, nearly the same mechanical design as the wood or hard-rubber ones) which plays so well it has knocked my wood one out of the #1 spot on my instrument stand. Definitely not your cheap marching band clarinet destined for lamp duty!
Since I've gone off-topic into metal clarinet land, another note: I've just finished restoring an interesting Kohlert metal Bb soprano clarinet (pre-WWII, standard Boehm system) with thick-walled, barrel-shaped tonehole chimneys to accommodate undercut (fraised) toneholes, just like on your better wood clarinets! And, no surprise to me, it sounds very nice, just like a good wood clarinet. The Kohlerts were no slouches when it came to making woodwind instruments, despite being bounced from town to town (and having their homeland claimed by maybe four different 'countries') over nearly a century of instrument-making.
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Author: Shorthand
Date: 2006-02-17 00:59
All I have to say about that register mechanism is "Oh how odd."
I guess it makes the altissimo pretty free-blowing, though.
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