 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: BassetHorn
Date: 2006-02-06 23:27
Hello moderators, if it’s alright to ask a bassoon question for those who double on clarinet/bassoon…
What brand of bassoons do you play on? Pros and cons?
More specifically, are Bundy/Selmer USA, Lesher, Kohlert, and Schreiber mechanically sound and built to last provided they are well look after? In term of sound/built quality, are they equivalent to their clarinet and bass clarinet counterpart?
Thanks.
Willy
[ Note - the oboe bulletin board might be a better place - http://test.woodwind.org/oboe/BBoard/list.html?f=10, or join the doublereed mailing list by sending an email to doublereed-subscribe@woodwind.org Mark C. ]
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: ron b
Date: 2006-02-07 05:20
I'm you brought this topic up, BassetHorn, because I've been curious for some time but haven't gotten around to investigating bassoons. I know there are plastic models and I wonder, as with clarinets, if opinions are as intense about body material as they are with clarinets. Have metal bodied bassoons been made and, if so, are they in a similar category as metal clarinets? I've seen and heard a heckelphone, metal of course, that sounded pretty good.. to me, anyway.
My question: do metal bassoons exist? If not, why not?
Uneducated but curious,
- r![[cool]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/cool.gif) n b -
( Last seen heading in the direction of the Oboe BBoard. Thanks, Mark. )
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-02-07 11:05
Metal Heckelphone? Are you sure? They're only made in wood as far as I'm aware - the only metal Heckelphone-looking instrument I know is the Conn-O-Sax - a straight alto pitched in F (same as a cor anglais and basset horn) with a perforated globular bell.
I don't think metal bassoons have ever been made - the bore is very narrow and tonehole chimneys incredibly long, so I think they'll be a bit on the fragile side and lose the tone quality if short tonehole chimneys are used - the nearest thing to a metal bassoon is a Sarrusophone, but the fingering system is different.
Bassoons have extension keys for the low notes (taken with the left thumb from low D down to low Bb) whereas Sarrusophones (and Rothphones) are a similar concept to oboes (ands saxes) - the right hand notes go to low C and the LH little fingers to low Bb.
Rothphones look like very narrow bore saxes in shape, but with a double reed instead.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Merlin
Date: 2006-02-07 12:17
Among the bassoon doublers here in Toronto (as opposed to full-time bassoonists) you'll find instruments by Kohlert, Schreiber, Fox, Heckel and Moosman.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2006-02-07 15:37
Talk about sticker shock. I went into a couple of woodwind departments in Tokyo a few years ago and found $5K clarinets and $35,000 bassoons.
Bob Phillips
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: hinotehud ★2017
Date: 2006-02-07 15:41
I double on basson as well as having taught 35 years in public schools. I was able to try many brands of bassoons. during that time. For my money, (and I just bought my own) you can't beat a Fox unless you are going for the top professional models. I have a Fox Renard and it plays like a dream compared to the brands you listed.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2006-02-07 15:43
The bassoon players of my acquaintance have leaned a lot towards polypropolene instruments. The reason there is that you get a stable bore that's impervious to the normal bassoon ailments (cracking of the long joint, rot at the bottom of the boot joint). Fox offers a number of options in this area, and for those not willing to purchase a car without wheels (i.e., a gen-u-ine Heckel horn from the old country), it's a viable alternative.
Me, I've got an old Schreiber "Heckel system" (as it says right there on the horn) student model that I acquired for all of $333.33 (the tax value as a school gift deduction to the former owner). A couple of hundred more for an overhaul, and it's more than good enough for me.
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-02-07 16:15
I've heard the Yamaha Custom bassoons (812 and 821) are as near as you can get to a Heckel without taking out a 2nd mortgage for a used Heckel, or selling a kidney for a new Heckel.
Now I have to say considering their history and reputation, Heckel keywork is a bit rough considering they're meant to be the dog's b......s in the bassoon world - I'd have hoped to see nicely filed castings with smooth undersides, not ones that look like they've done several rounds with the linishing machine, and the Heckelphone I tried felt spongy under the fingers, and I didn't think for the noise it made the £20,000 pricetag was justified - a Loree bass oboe is around £6000 and I thought it makes the better sound - or easier still, a tenor sax of any quality you like for a fraction of that! At least you know you'll always have an ample supply of reeds for one of these!
Maybe I'm just biased.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: ron b
Date: 2006-02-07 17:14
ooooops... sorry. my bad. I meant Sarrousaphone NOT Hecklephone -- sarrousaphone
"
"
" .......
[write it one hundred times on something, rb...] . Apology offered.
Thank you for correcting me, Chris.
Somehow got brain wires mixed up and failed the instrument I.D. quiz here.
Sarrousaphones are metal instruments, Hecklephones are not. there
- ron b -
![[frown]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie2.gif)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: katmom
Date: 2006-02-09 06:12
Bassoon player here who sometimes doubles on clarinet - by all means, get a Fox polypropylene. Best buy for the money - nice hard keys, good pads, great intonation, and a body that will never rot. Such a deal. Schriebers are overrated. And not many can afford a Puchner or Heckel, although sometimes you can still run across a Puchner that is not recognized for what it is. If I had unlimited funds, and could get any instrument I wanted, it would be a Puchner. Next in line would be the Fox Polypropylene. Right now I play on an old beat up Mirafone that I dearly love, just because it has been through the war (Music Degree) with me.
Good Luck!
Jeanan
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: dummer musiker
Date: 2006-02-09 16:18
The brands you listed are okay, but the biggest issue with them is inconsistency. Try many of them. I would avoid Lesher, Bundy, and Lintons.
One brand you didn't mention was Fox. I currently play a Fox and love it. It has very even tone throughout the ranges and has excellant intonation. I get a nice big bassoon sound on my bassoon. Fox bassoons are also known for being consistent. The plastic Foxes are good too.
Best advice is to try many bassoons. Have any used wooden bassoons checked out by a professional. They may have rot in the boot joint which is bad.
Yes, most professionals play Heckels and Heckels are amazing...as long as you dont mind selling your first born to buy one and waiting several years for one made for you.
"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-02-09 16:43
Be careful with some of the Moosman bassoons form around 20-30 years ago - I've heard that the lining in the wing (tenor) joint can disintegrate on these, I think it was down to the dryness of the maple which expanded through use and compressed the lining causing it to break up.
The plastic Bundy bassoons are heavy instruments, even though there have been weight-saving hollows in places in the body, they still weigh a ton - especially the older plastic ones made in Bakelite-type plastic.
The polypropylene-bodied pro model Fox (Model III) does look good in black and silver - there are student/internmediate Fox/Renard polypropylene models (Model IV, 41 & 51) but these haven't got the metal bands around the sockets.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: David Peacham
Date: 2006-02-09 17:05
Why polypropylene? I'm no expert on plastics, but I don't think that's what plastic clarinets are made of. Is there a good reason for using different plastics for different instruments?
-----------
If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-02-09 17:12
I think polypropylene is lighter than PVC or ABS, and it's probably stronger than the other two - and that's what baler twine is made of, and you know how strong that is.
I used to think the polypropylene bodied bassoons would have been a reddy-brown colour (the same iron oxide colour of baler twine), but soon discovered they're jet black.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2006-02-09 17:20)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2006-02-09 20:26
Polypropylene is not only stronger, it is also more durable than the others as the plasticizer in the compound does not tend to leave the casting as quickly. I don't know why this is so, but I do know that it's one of the reasons that lines for sailboats have gone with polypropylene over the last thirty years or so.
Exposure to air, heat and UV light all cause plastics to lose this component, and old PVC can be a nasty mess if it is let go too far.
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: BassetHorn
Date: 2006-02-09 20:34
So I can deduce from the post that the "plastic" Bundy and Selmer USA bassoons are NOT made of Polypropylene?
They are still solidly built and can take kid's punishment, right?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-02-09 20:38
The older Bundys are brittle and heavy, but the newer ones (from around 20-30myears ago) are in Resonite.
I know an oboist with a PVC Loree (a rare beast) and the joints have developed a white powdery bloom on the surface due to the lack of anti UV treatments in the plastic (like the B-pillar seatbelt loops in cars), and he has this cleaned off every service.
The iron oxide additive in polypropylene used in baler twine and yachting rope is there to protect it against UV.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2006-02-09 20:50)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Merlin
Date: 2006-02-09 20:55
Attachment: fox_plastic_bsn.jpg (73k)
My understanding is that polypropylene has a density quite close to that of maple.
In its raw form, it has an ivory colour to it.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-02-09 21:06
Nice photo - kinda like vioins 'in-the-white' stage, but nothing a lick of paint can't sort out. I've wondered what a bassoon would look like when 'in-the-white' - now I know.
I thought polypropylene would have been a bit more translucent in it's raw state - but I can see the dark areas where the tenons show through the sockets.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-02-09 21:32
WHERE? I can't see it! OOPS! (sound of cracking perspex) Oh... there it is.
Do you think perspex instruments are a good way of teaching people about proper instrument care/hygene? I'm in no doubt if they can see what the bore looks like it'll give the worst offenders something to worry about if they realised what crud can build up as they can see it.
I've seen the Moennig plexiglass oboes, the Marigaux Aultglass 2000 series oboe and Buffet B12s in perspex, but this bassoon looks pretty good - did they ever do a contra in perspex as well?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Merlin
Date: 2006-02-09 23:13
Nope, no plastic contras - according to Chip Owen, plastics have to great a co-efficient of expansion, so the key work binds up when they get cold.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-02-09 23:16
Oh yeah!
Silly me - I only mentioned this yesterday when talking about plastic contra-alto clarinets and the amount of slop they need between pillars!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: BassetHorn
Date: 2006-02-10 16:31
Very useful alternative! So what size/kind of reeds does the Runyun bassoon mouthpiece take? Eb or Bb clarinet reeds? Similar sax reeds?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Fred
Date: 2006-02-10 21:59
I don't know what reeds the bassoon mp would take - I'm sure the Runyon folks could fill you in on the details. Years ago I tried a chedeville oboe mp, but the thing took reeds maybe 6-7mm wide and I wasn't that interested in pursuing it. Hopefully the Runyon product uses something standard!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-02-11 00:10
Runyon bassoon mouthpieces use an Eb clarinet reed - I remember this as it was listed in Bill Lewington's catalogue going back a decade or so - and it comes with a ligature and cap as well.
Willy, a cane bassoon reed should last you about 2-3 months if looked after well - have your teacher scrape them to suit you, as well as have them show you where and how to scrape them to get them right for you. You might go through more reeds at the beginning though, but it won't be long before you get the hang of working on them. Plastic reeds don't have the same depth of sound as cane ones, but they will be easier to play on to begin with - you could always get one to see what they're like, but the good thing with plastic reeds is that you don't have to soak them and they won't dry out.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: BassetHorn
Date: 2006-02-11 00:41
Thank you all for your advices. I look forward to learning the bassoon. Willy
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: laenloe
Date: 2006-02-11 13:22
Well,
I went through the whole process of which brand gave the biggest bang for the buck and I ended up getting a professional model Yamaha for about half the price of the Heckels. I was so impressed with this instrument that, when I purchased a professional bass clarinet, I ended up again with Yamaha's low C bass. I am still a fanatic about my Buffet soprano clarinets, however.
Lorie Enloe, Assistant Professor Instrumental Music Education
Lionel Hampton School of Music
P.O. Box 444015
The University of Idaho
Moscow, ID 83844-4015
208-885-0157
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-02-11 14:20
You didn't fancy a rosewood Buffet bassoon?
Just think how unique you'll be with one of these - and they're far more affordable than most semi-pro German systems.
But that's if you want to be one of the very few French bassoon players outside France.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2006-02-12 01:49
There was a Buffet bassoon up on one of the services a few years back, but I dropped out early on. I think that it went for about $800.00 US; not too out of line for a used horn, I would think...
Add a few more items and it really would give you something to work with: French bassoon, German clarinet, German oboe...
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-02-12 13:50
I remember seeing Yamaha's first attempt at getting into the oboe market back in the '80s - it was a very well made and stunning looking instrument.
Only problem was it didn't exactly have mass-market potential as it was a Vienna model!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: ukebert
Date: 2006-02-13 14:48
Has anybody heard of the fagottino made by Guntram Wolf (of Kontraforte fame)?
http://www.guntramwolf.de/index_e.htm
http://www.guntramwolf.de/instruments/modern/bassino/Fagottini%20for%20prof.%20use.pdf
A bassoon one octave above the norm... Brilliant!
:-)
ukebert
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-02-13 18:39
I've seen the ones pitched in F and in G, but I think they're made by Amati for Guntram Wolf.
Also the 3-5 keyed oboes that use a cor anglais reed for children to begin on.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2006-02-13 20:45
The German system oboe may have been intended for that market. Yamaha sells several models of German style clarinets (including at least one professional model), none of which are available here in the US of A.
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-02-13 21:38
Fox bassoons are popular this side of the pond as well.
I did see a used pair of the early Yamaha German bore Boehm system clarinets up for sale about 12 years ago, and they were funny in that they both had silicone rubber pads
[ Portions deleted; Chris P. is an employee of Howarth's and did not disclose such until much later. My apologies for missing this and letting Chris P. misuse this BBoard. Mark Charette ]
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
