 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: SVClarinet09
Date: 2006-02-09 20:28
can anyone tell me where to find one. my director has one and i LOVE it. way better than my 1400. i heard they discontinued them. im not sure though. can anyone provied any info?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-02-09 20:40
If you can't find one of these, go for a 'Centered Tone' or 'Balanced Tone' - but be prepared for a massive repair bill if buying one unrestored.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2006-02-09 20:54
Chris,
What's so expensive about a restoring an old Selmer clarinet? I'm curious.....I've done a few and other than dealing with the occasional articulated G# key problems, nothing extraordinary comes to mind about working on them. They seemed no different to me than any other quality clarinet of that era.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2006-02-09 21:10
There was the "original" Selmer Omega [Paris] cl, made back in the 1950-60's, I believe, as Chris pointed out, a large-bore [.590" = 15.0 mm], possibly very similar to their BT and CT models [have a CT]. Apparently only a few were made, they are rare [expensive] now, with some in museums, likely mainly because of the engraved and gilded bell. The more recent Omega [USA] [1980's], I have one, is a "small-bore" [.573" = 14.55 mm] with consequent differences, still a VG player, but, to me, tonally "brighter". We have discussed these previously here, so I suggest a Search, for more commentary. Much luck, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-02-09 21:16
It depends on how neglected they are - the original pair I bought needed all new screws as the lot had rusted, so it's a gamble - and it pays off if you can find one that's been well looked after.
I've only seen a few in good condition (that have been well looked after by their original owners), but most have needed a lot of work done to them - and I don't know of any that haven't split - not that this is a major problem as they can be fixed.
Even my Series 9 were in a less than good condition, but I've now done all the work to put them right.
And now I've just bought this:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7386272186&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWN%3AIT&rd=1
Not something a wipe over with an oily rag can cure by all means, but not an impossible feat to get into playing condition. I like to go the whole hog on restoring instruments. Maybe further than necessary but I like to do a job I'm proud to show and play to people.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2006-02-09 21:17)
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2006-02-09 21:47
Congrats, Chris, you have a rare bird. From the pics, its very much the same key-wise as my 1932 RI FB, will be interested in your comments on bore size and character. My RI has a metal-tubed barrel which fits into an enlarged U J. Does yours have that [peculiar] structure ? Have fun, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2006-02-09 22:06
As to the lead question on this thread, Brook Mays Music carried the Selmer Paris Omega clarinet. You might go to their website and send an email if you don't see one advertised. They may have a couple in stock even though it has been discontinued. It's a nice entry-level pro horn that was sold to compete with the Buffet R-13. Let us know if you find one.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2006-02-09 22:11
The 1950s Selmer Omega was a superpremium Centered Tone, with engraving, a special (rather clumsy) throat Bb mechanism, 3 barrels of various lengths and 3 register vents of different diameters. They sold for $500 at the time, about double what the CT cost.
I played a pair for several years. The Bb was truly dreadful, and I traded it for a Buffet R-13. The A was pretty good, with a big, rattling tone. I eventually replaced that with an R-13.
The model has been discussed several times here and on the Klarinet list.
Ken Shaw
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Author: SVClarinet09
Date: 2006-02-09 22:18
well this clarinet that my director has is no more than 10years old. it doesnt have enragivng on the bell and the bore is rather small say 570-575
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-02-09 22:45
The only other Selmer Omega I know of (I remember seeing one from Vincent Bach about 10 years ago, along with an Omega flute with it's gold plated and engraved lip plate - all a bit too 'bling' for my liking) is pretty much a wooden bodied Selmer USA (of the Bundy type) with silver plated keys and conical pad cups as opposed to the domed ones on cheaper Selmer USA clarinets, and the bell had some huge but garish engraving on it.
I think it has a .577 bore, the tone was nice but the mechanics let it down - the stainless steel springs didn't give a positive feel to the keywork, it felt a bit sluggish under the fingers.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2006-02-09 23:25)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-02-09 23:18
Hmmmm..... that looks like a Selmer Prologue.
I just did a search and found these (Selmer Paris Omega) have a .570 bore - the Selmer USA Omega is as I suspected a .577 bore, but definitely not anywhere near the same league as the Selmer Paris one.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2006-02-09 23:27)
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Author: SVClarinet09
Date: 2006-02-09 23:31
Awe man. The guy sold that Omega 5 days later. :-/ For 800$ it was a steal. That clarinet has great intonation and sound and everything.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-02-09 23:38
That's more than a steal at that price!
I think the nearest to this will be a Prologue, or an Oddyssee (but NOT the plastic Odyssey - that's a CSO!) - but don't stop looking, another one will turn up with luck.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2006-02-09 23:40)
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2006-02-10 00:54
The Prologue isn't quite as nice an instrument as the Paris Omega (I've play-tested both and bought 2 Paris Omegas for students). But, the Oddyssee (wood version) is an improved version of the Paris Omega.
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Author: ghuba
Date: 2006-02-10 13:53
The Selmer Omega I just had restored has the double vent key shown in the bottom picture and almost identical engraving to the instrument shown in Vytas' pictures. The top joint is clearly marked Centered Tone with the usual CT logo and it also has Selmer Omega markings on the bell and lower joint (engraving starts in the bottom 15% of the lower joint and continues onto the bell. The bell says Omega. This is a Q series from the 1950s. The instrument plays like a Centered Tone (which it is) and perhaps the the throat Bb is better although I do not see a huge difference. The instrument I have is keyed as a semi-full Boehm (full Boehm except for the lower Eb). This is a "fun" instrument to play.
In comparison to the Omega Mechanism, on the professional-level Leblancs they were installed on, the Stubbins system works much better and seems to give a cleaner Bb. On the professional level Selmer instruments of the 1960s, the Mazzeo system seems to work best but does require alternate fingerings (I have had examples of all three restored in the past year and all are quite "interesting" horns from a collector's-historian's viewpoint, although I can see why they might not be played professionally today).
The recent 1990s Selmer Omegas are not comparable to the 1950s clarinets marketed under the same name.
George
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2006-02-10 14:02
TKS, Vytas, for clarification, fine pics, which show up the diffs., if one has a 1980's USA Omega available, between the two. On the 3rd pic, [Paris]the "double register vent" looks to me to be the best [thumb ring actuated] version of the Stubbins "clean Bb" plus better-located register vent. IMHO, this results in an improved CT. My 1980's Sel Alto cl has this same structure which [I believe] gives marked improvment to both the Bb and the clarion. This was somewhat referred to in the "Alto Clarinet" thread. Of interest to at least a few of us. Regards, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: ghuba
Date: 2006-02-10 14:17
Don,
The Selmer Omega mechanism and the Stubbins mechanism (double vent controlled by thumb key) are mechanically quite different. The hole placement is also not the same for the vented Bb. Mechanically, the Stubbins mechanics work better. Comparing Stubbins clarinets I have (Leblanc professional, Stubbins original brand, Leblanc Noblet, Selmer L series A fitted with a Stubbins key) to the Selmer Omega I own, the Bb on the Stubbins is better AND the mechanics of the mechanism are much better. Of course, I also like the Mazzeo system best. The Stubbins mechanism appears to work better to me, although the Selmer Omega is a CENTERED-TONE Selmer which you either love (Vytas) or not (Ken) as indicated in earlier posts.
George
Post Edited (2006-02-11 04:26)
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2006-02-10 15:55
The Omega throat Bb design produced a perfect Bb but had two design problems.
First, your thumb had to be all the way off the ring for the Bb. This required extra movement and interfered with passages that go back and forth across the break, such as the A#/Bb alternation in the Debussy Premiere Rhapsody. The problem is resolved on the Steve Fox and Rossi designs, which make the connection to the throat Ab key instead of the thumb ring.
Second, the mechanism required a weak spring to open the register vent(with no mechanical connection), and a strong spring to overcome it when the Bb vent was open. This was a delicate balance adjustment that had to be tweaked often. Also, since the register vent had to open by itself, on a weak spring, it often stuck closed. Selmer designed the key with an extra tab that you could flick and supplied strips of sandpaper to remove any crud, but you never knew when the register vent would refuse to open.
As with any model, some instruments were were good and others were not. I happened to get a poor Bb and a good A. Also, for my way of playing, the Selmer CTs had a hard glare in the tone, and I preferred (and still prefer) the Buffet R-13.
See also:
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=152151&t=152140
http://test.woodwind.org/Databases/Klarinet/2002/04/000198.txt
http://test.woodwind.org/Databases/Klarinet/2000/12/001211.txt
Ken Shaw
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2006-02-10 17:30
To pursue this subject a bit farther, ?OK, GBK?, a close inspection of my two differing Stubbins mechanisms, old/original on a Noblet cl and per S's book pic pg 172, and my Selmer alto cl, the "old" when activated for Bb opens both the "Bb" pad AND the register key pad. On my alto, its an "either/or" with only one open depending upon the thumb covering. It may have escaped the notice of some of us that [on the "old"] the"Bb" tone hole is below the level of the next-to-top trill key, obviously for correct pitch, while on the Selmer version it is on the "trill hole" level ], again for correct pitch. May I suggest considering this diff. when analyzing its operation. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2006-02-10 20:12
Don -
The Stubbins design opens the register vent for both the second register and the throat Bb, plus an extra vent for the throat Bb. Stubbins's invention was not the addition of the extra vent (which had been done before), but its proper location, in combination with the relocation (higher and smaller) of the register vent to an acoustically better position.
The mechanism on alto clarinets is like the one on the Rossi or Fox clarinets, with the register vent or the Bb vent opening according to whether the throat Ab (or sometimes A) key is depressed. The two vents are never open simultaneously.
Contrabass and most bass clarinets have three vents -- the two that are on the alto plus an extra register vent to improve the notes from middle B through Eb.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-02-11 00:19
Most bass clarinets have three vents? Are you sure?
I wish they did!
Mine (a Buffet Prestige, and all the pro Selmers and Yamahas as well as some Leblancs) only has two - though I wouldn't mind an extra vent to help E-G#.
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Author: ghuba
Date: 2006-02-11 03:42
Attachment: StubbinsOmega.jpg (223k)
The attached photo shows the extra vent key on a Stubbins clarinet and on a Selmer Omega (Q series, 1950s). The Stubbins clarinet pictured is a "Stubbins branded," French-made clarinet. The same vent design appears on the Leblanc and Noblet Stubbins clarinets.
Notice the different placement of the extra vent on the Stubbins and Omega clarinets.
The mechanical operation of the Stubbins and Omega vents is different.
[This image is an original one owned by the poster. Permission is granted to Woodwind.org to post the image on The Clarinet BBoard.]
Post Edited (2006-02-11 04:17)
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2006-02-11 08:12
Chris P - I think Ken is saying that most (expensive) basses have three vents: one for throat Bb, plus two register vents. I'm no expert, but that was my understanding.
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If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-02-11 08:37
On all pro basses I've seen (all the top model ones by the four major companies) the lower vent serves as both the throat Bb vent as well as the lower part of upper register vent (B-Eb), then releasing RH finger 3 closes this vent and opens the crook key for the rest of the upper register, though this vent is set a bit too high up the instrument for the upper register F and F# which do suffer as a result.
The only triple vent speaker systems I know of are on Oehler system basses, though soon these will probably become standard on pro Boehm system basses with time.
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