 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: buedsma
Date: 2006-02-06 18:18
anyone more info on the different models and numbering in the past and the evolution in the instrument ??
Or a link with some info ? For the pro models i mean !
Post Edited (2006-02-06 18:18)
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Author: BassetHorn
Date: 2006-02-06 18:40
Are you referring to the Selmer Paris brand or the Selmer USA/Bundy brand?
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Author: BassetHorn
Date: 2006-02-06 19:55
I do not have any knowledge if Selmer Paris made/makes more than one model of the Eb contra clarinet (wood, to low Eb, 5 pieces construction). It’s possible that the model number may have changed over the years, but AFAIK there haven’t been any significant changes to its manufacturing specification. Contra made today is probably very similar to those made 30 years ago.
Rosewood is used. I read somewhere that the reason rosewood is used in the making of larger sized clarinets is because it’s more readily available in large chucks and easier to work with than granadilla. But in the old days Selmer did in fact used granadilla for its Eb contra. I have seen at 2 specimens on eBay and actually played a granadilla model owned by a friend.
The worst thing about it is the angle of the mouthpiece/neck tenon, in my opinion it’s too horizontal. I prefer the angle on the Leblanc horns. It’s also a pain to assemble and disassemble. You need some big hands and dexterity.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2006-02-06 20:04
To add (or maybe correct slightly) what Willy wrote above, the oldest Selmer-Paris contra-altos had a range to low-E only (four r.h. pinky spatulas) whereas later models had the current range to low-Eb (five pinky spatulas).
Even though the rosewood contras are absolutely gorgeous, as far as I know they're mechanically and acoustically identical (or very, very similar) to the plain old Bundy/Buescher/Selmer-USA plastic contra-altos which are about 1/10th to 1/5th the cost.
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Author: BassetHorn
Date: 2006-02-06 20:07
Thanks Dave, I forgot about the low E version in the old days... Good call. I concur with Dave that the plastic version made on this side of the pond is excellent and one of the best values in woodwinds.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2006-02-06 21:33
David -
Bundy contras have Bundy keywork, which is, for me, uncomfortable. My Selmer Paris contra (one of the early ones, going only to low E) feels better in my hands. and seems to have a warmer tone.
I agree that the rosewood contras are not worth the enormous cost. I wouldn't have gotten mine if it hadn't been well used and priced about the same as a new plastic one.
Ken Shaw
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2006-02-06 22:14
Ken,
I dig what you're saying -- I made my Buescher contra-alto (as well as my Kohlert bass clarinets) more comfortable by filling all the concave key pads (that is, the finger touch-pads) with epoxy, then filing/sanding the tops flat and sealing with clear nail-polish. The resulting keys are then flat-topped like on Leblanc instruments, and have the appearance of mother-of-pearl such as on saxophones. Much more comfortable (for me, anyway). I also do a bit of judicious bending of the long l.h. pinky levers to allow me to reach them with less wrist rotation; and re-aligned the two bridge keys between the joint segments to allow a bit of rotation of the two joints relative to each other (to make the relationship between left and right hands more comfortable). Finally, I re-angled the neck to a more 'clarinet-like' angle. The net result is a very comfortable contra -- for which I paid all of $800 US and it didn't even need to be repadded at that price.
I guess the bottom line is that the stock Bundy/Buescher/Selmer-USA contra-alto isn't very ergonomic, is it?
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2006-02-06 23:28
David -
What I hate about Bundys is the slick nickel key plating. My fingers slide all over the place, and I'm slightly allergic to nickel. Also, the keys have sharp angles on the edges, which my fingers catch on.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Shorthand
Date: 2006-02-07 01:33
That's true of the Rosewood Eb contras as well - they're nickel plated keys.
I believe in the last several decades that the keysets for both the Bundy and the Selmer have been identical. I have been functioning under the belief that both instruments come off the same jig and one is rosewood and the other ABS resin and that's about the only difference - which is why the Bundy contras are such a good deal.
If this were true, it would be one of the best test cases for whether or not material makes a difference, espcially since the difference should be more pronounced at lower frequencies.
God knows, these instruments will flex - play a low Eb and suddenly your entire page of music takes on a motion blur straight up and down. Walk away from a long practice session and the world will vibrate before your eyes.
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2006-02-07 15:35
The main difference that I've noticed between the plastic bodied Bundy contra horn and the rosewood equivalent is that there is a lot more "buzz" coming from the keywork. I never experienced this with the metal Leblanc horns (the Hovenagel designed "paperclips", nor with the Selmer wooden ones.
To me, it seemed more like a fit and finish issue.
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: Shorthand
Date: 2006-02-07 15:45
Note: to make links clickable, just put them in angle brackets "<put link here>"
I stand corrected on the whole issue of them being identical in any way shape or form. However, they share almost idential bores: (25.10mm on the Selmer Paris and 25.07 (0.987") on the Bundy.) I forgot also about the huge bell on the Selmer paris models - actually one of my favorite features.
In all honesty, I've only played on Selmer Paris Rosewood contras, though one did leak like a sieve. One of my long term goals is to buy one and in the process of overhaul actually get everything silver plated - THAT would be a incredibly beautiful instrument.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-02-07 16:02
I did see a blackwood bodied one (as opposed to the normal rosewood) for sale on eBay in the US a while back - I think this was a low E model.
Whereas the Bundy/Buescher ones are utilitarian in pretty much every respect, the Selmer Paris ones do have a certain aesthetic charm for such a behemoth of an instrument. Even their BBb contrabasses have an unusual design - note the position of the pad cups in relation to their touchpieces,and the middle tenon isn't in the usual place seperating the LH and RH - some RH keys and main action toneholes are on the top joint.
(let's see if this works)
http://www.selmer.fr/html/english/claribas/claris/cla15/hd15.htm
Nice one Shorthand! Job well done.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2006-02-07 16:05)
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2006-02-07 17:59
To remark on Terry's comment about buzzing keywork on the Bundy contras, he's right -- they seem to build in a huge amount of play between the key tubes and the posts. When I overhauled mine I had to shim and swedge keys all over the place. Having done those things, though, I'm fairly convinced that it plays as well as the admittedly MUCH prettier rosewood Paris contras (of which I've only played two in my lifetime, it's true). Now that gorgeous bell on the Paris contras? Looks great, but acoustically does nothing. My Buescher shakes the foundations on the low Eb (the only note which truly comes out of the bell), and it has the dinky little bass clarinet-sized bell.
It all boils down to how much you're willing/able to pay for the appearance and 'feel-good' aspects of the more expensive instrument. For me, functionality is everything since I'm a doubler and don't play contra very often.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-02-07 21:03
The reason why they have so much play between pillars is to safeguard the keys from binding solid between them when the body is cold, as plastic moves a lot more than wood through temperature changes, and these contras (like all plastic instruments) need to work no matter how cold they are, so the amount of end play is relative to the length of the key barrel - long keys mounted between point screws can need as much as 2mm of end play at room temperature - it sounds and looks criminal, but it's a necessary evil.
If the keywork is snug betwen the pillars when it's at room temperature, put it somewhere cold (in your car or garage for about an hour) and the lot will probably bind up solid when you get it out of the case to play it.
I do this on plastic oboes and clarinets that I service or overhaul - cool them down in the fridge or outside to see which keys bind - on oboes/cors anglais it's usually the long trill keys on the top joint, and on clarinets the first key to bind is usually the LH F/C lever - then back the screws off or shroten the key barrel.
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Author: Wes
Date: 2006-02-07 22:25
As the owner of a Selmer Bundy contra alto, I've found it to be a wonderful low cost woodwind. Later, I may try a slight undercutting of the toneholes to provide a more focussed sound, especially in the low register.
One like Bundy nstrument had a less bright sound than mine. Upon examining the bore, I found that it was rougher than mine, possibly from deterioration due to saliva left in the bore.
Bandleaders love these instruments because of the visual effect. However, the parts are often doubled by the tubas and covered up. The soprano clarinet is my choice. It may be better to never show it to the band leader if you do not intend to perform on it in the band.
It is my understanding that Stokowsky used the contra alto to double the string contrabass parts, writing out new parts for it, probably a good idea. The contra alto is very magical in a clarinet quintet or sextet.
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Author: Shorthand
Date: 2006-02-07 23:29
Saliva couln't have possibly gotten into the bore in volume - the water in there is condensation - distilled water.
The contra as another tuba thing is more than a little annoying but what composer can count on having one other than Gunther Schuler (who once wrote a divisi BBb contra part).
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