 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-02-03 18:59
What's the best way, and most diplomatic way of letting someone know you don't like their tone as they have no tone, and they need to improve drastically before they make my ears bleed without causing them any offense?
It's just that I'm at a stage now where I'm sat next to several players who just shrieks out the high notes (if not every note) regardless of tone quality and tuning, they can't be completely oblivious to the fact but just don't have any inclination to improve, but I just feel like it's about time they realised they're not doing themselves or anyone any good if they carry on like they've been doing for a long time, and improvement isn't a bad thing.
I know they're only playing for their own enjoyment, but the experience will be more enjoyable and rewarding if only they knew what they sound like and then bettered themselves knowing they are producing a tone of worth - I was hoping now I've come into the band I'd have liked to set an example of how a clarinet should sound - full, smooth and free from shrillness as opposed to thin, weak, LOUD, flat and intensely jarring on the ear.
Seems they've got their heads buried and ears closed to any influence - I've drawn influence from various sources and hope to repay that by producing the best sound I can as I feel I have a debt to the world's greatest as they've set the standards (of which there are too many to name), and influencing others along the way.
But at the same time I don't want to risk becoming unpopular - I want to help get the best out of these people, but do this in a way that they will understand and realise I have their best intentions at heart.
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Author: TonkaToy
Date: 2006-02-03 20:02
How about trying to make their problem your problem.
By that I mean, why not position yourself before rehearsal and be working on long tones or 12th's or anything that can be construed as being an exercise that promotes a beautiful, focused tone.
When they come in, make sure they hear you, and say something like, "gee, it's so hard to make a beautiful sound on the clarinet but boy it sure is worth it. Hey, what kind of exercises do you do to foster good tone production? Have you tried this?"
It can't hurt anymore than your ears do now.
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Author: hans
Date: 2006-02-03 20:10
Perhaps if you can find a way to record them and play it back...
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Author: BassetHorn
Date: 2006-02-03 20:18
What about slipping them a nice polite note in their instrument case when they are not looking? Type, don't hand write : )
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-02-03 21:25
I was thinking of using my Minidisc recorder for their benefit - I know hearing recordings of myself makes me think how I could make my playing better.
I do show them how to get around tricky passages easier as they tend to stick fast to their basic fingering charts, and they have taken this on board, but as tone is a personal thing I don't want them to think I'm attacking them.
I do practice long tones and wide intervals to warm up to pitch (as well as checking my tuning) in a relatively musical way rather than just tuning to the one concert Bb that's given - I like to do broken arpeggios from low E to altissimo G to see if the whole instrument is in tune. And checking my long Bb is working as well by playing part of the slow clarinet solo from the Tannhauser overture or the opening Hymn tune from the 2nd mvmt of Dvorak's 'Cello concerto - they contain the all important F to long Bb.
As for leaving notes in their cases, that's a brilliant suggestion, but I think a note made from newspaper cuttings of each letter like a ransom note could have the desired effect!
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Author: CPW
Date: 2006-02-03 21:34
You mean to say that
the Air Force issued Bose ear protection device
that you were wearing
did not register a hint of response?
Against the windmills of my mind
The jousting pole splinters
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Author: Don Poulsen
Date: 2006-02-03 21:36
If they are male, get some attractive female classmate to audibly comment, perhaps to another of the same "Don't you think the sound Chris gets from his clarinet is cool/phat?" (Use the terminology appropriate for your group.)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-02-03 22:03
I forgot to mention - I'm only 33, and they're a lot older (as well as ladies) - and hence wiser, and will hopefully wise up on the suggestion of sweetening their tone.
The youngsters I have no problem with as they're still learning and a good sound will come to them, but I think as the older players are generally older beginners (and most do have a good musical background as pianists or singers) I thought they'd be more critical about their sound as I am, and they've no doubt heard many times as many clarinettists I have to know what sound is a good sound. I might ask them which players they like, then suggest ways of getting nearer that sound.
CPW - The drummer wears ear plugs so maybe I should do the same (but they are a bit discreet), or I could always borrow the huge bright yellow ear defenders the CNC operators use! I think I'll need to take out a 2nd mortgage to get a pair of Bose ones, I don't know anyone in the Air Force I could borrow some from!
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Author: Ken Mills
Date: 2006-02-03 22:09
Dear Chris P; "Hey, that's good enough for the new jazz" you say. Then play a serial twelve-tone row because there aren't many, and then say that you can play it no matter their accompaniment, you know the theoretical reasons. Then tell the person that you could play an ascending whole tone scale for four octaves, but that might sound annoying. Just kidding is the tactful vehicle. Recommend the Selmer CP100 mouthpiece if you were me for the sound I get, recommend yours. Now if only I knew more notes, Ken
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Author: Shorthand
Date: 2006-02-03 22:27
Are these high schoolers or college students or pros or what? (Assuming high schoolers.)
If you all take from the same teacher, obviously go through them. You can also go through the director, but this is a little less subtle, I'd only pursue this after you have offered a solution via the path below.
If we're talking high schoolers, I think the most subtle way to get into their heads on this one is equipment.
Start with a tuner and a clip on pickup. Use it during rehearsal, offer it freely to those around you with the exhortation that it really helped your intonation.
Same thing goes for ligatures. Bonades and Rovners are cheap - it sounds like these folks need rovners. Ask for their opinions, see if they want to try, etc. Then they'll ask for your opinion and then you can offer it: "You know, I think that your sound is still a little bright even with the Rovner. You project plenty as it is, and I think you could go a little more Sabine Meyer and a little less Stoltzman. What reed are you using?...."
(If these are college students, you can do the same, but you can take the less subtle approach of asking what they think of your tone - tell them you're thinking of investing in a new mouthpiece and was wondering which direction to go in - you can also add mouthpieces to the list. I did a mouthpiece trial when I was considering and actually ended up making a little money - I asked for $5 apiece to cover the costs of shipping and mouthpiece pads and ended up selling 3 that I had gotten for trial.)
Note: I'm not trying to start another Stoltzman flame war here, but just give an example of how to butter up the mark.
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2006-02-04 04:04
OK -- I think I have the picture.
This is, like, a community band, everyone's a volunteer, and a lot of these folks are older ladies who haven't played since they were in high school, or who have, as they say, "reached their level of incompetence". Am I right?
First question: do you have a director? How does the director handle the intonation, tone, balance issues with your section, or with other sections in the band? Might it be possible for you to approach the director with your observations and concerns?
Does the band have a board of directors or a player's council? Are you on it? Do you know (well) someone who is?
With the support of the director and the band council (or whatever yours is called), you might very well be able to offer to lead sectional rehearsals for your section. First item on the agenda would be tone color, intonation, and section blend.
If you play your cards right on this, your director will probably think he/she has died and gone to heaven, to have a volunteer willing to take on this issue. And even if only a few of the offenders show up, it will make a noticeable difference.
I sincerely doubt that these folks are TRYING to play poorly. It may well be (although I will forgive you for not believing this) that they actually do not know that they are playing poorly. I have had many years of experience as a director of all-volunteer groups, and I could cite you any number of examples of this in my own experience, but this post is already too long. Trust me. They DON'T know they are bad. They just don't know any better way.
The one thing I am sure about is that you're gonna catch more flies with honey than with vinegar, here. If you come on like Mr. Know-it-All and tell them, implicitly or explicitly, that they stink, the rest of your (most likely) short tenure with the group will be very uncomfortable for you, and they will STILL not be any better.
But if you can make friends with them and offer (through proper channels suggested above) to lead sectionals, you can become a hero in everybody's eyes -- including, perhaps, your own.
Easy does it!
Susan
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-02-04 07:51
This is a local concert band in which the director is himself a clarinettist - if I hadn't come back to the band this time on solo/1st clarinet when I did he was going to do that himself, leaving the band without a MD. Only thing is he doesn't pick people up on their tone, maybe he's more concerned with staying in everyone's good books and concentrates on tempos, dynamics and making sure everyone's together rather than tone and tuning, though he does make fleeting comments on both that are let go as soon as they're mentioned.
My main reason to rejoin was not only for my benefit (as I've hardly touched the clarinet in the last 15 years) but with the hope of having an influence on the others playing both technically and tonally - I am showing them the tricks I was taught and they do use them, even the 'long Bb' was an alien concept to some players.
As for the particular players in question, they do play on fantastic instruments (we're talking top pro models here) and furnished with Rovner or Optimum ligatures and I'd like them to get the best out of their gear. But they've never really progressed in the time (over 10 years) they've been playing, and they've done a lot more clarinet playing in that time than I have done in my life as rehearsals are weekly and their attendance has generally been good.
I have thought of sectional rehearsals or clarinet workshops, but I wouldn't like to be the one to head these - I'd rather a pro player or clarinet professor came in to do this and I would like to be one of the participants, but not on first as I'd rather someone that needs more advice and more time go before me.
The committee meetings are held by committee members only, not discussed with the whole band present as they once were, but I don't think matters such as players tone is as important to them as players paying their subs on time or band uniforms, as the players who I feel need a shake-up in the tone department are themselves on the committee, and this could be seen as gross insubordination if I was to question their ability.
But I will have a word with the MD to see what he thinks - I don't think there's ever been a clarinet workshop held here, and maybe it's about time there was. If it gets people thinking about their tone and doing something about it, then that's the battle won.
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2006-02-04 19:49
I'm in a similar concert band, with the shrill evidence of little practice time all around... it goes with the territory.
Unless the director intends to re-audition (presuming that was a requirement) all the players, your setting yourself up for scorn.
I wear earplugs during the concerts, and keep them on hand for rehearsals.
The ONLY things you have any right to insist apon from your band mates are timely arrival to the gig and participation from all for chores.
Try to keep in mind that this activity may be the only one some find satisfying in their daily lives - don't dash someone's dreams, it may be all they have...
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Author: lyn
Date: 2006-02-05 01:41
Now you know why they call 'em Calamity Bands.... ;D
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Author: ginny
Date: 2006-02-05 02:27
I've had some horrible tone players in my band. I grit my teeth and try to listen to the first player, who's pretty good.
My son (who plays beautifully and is a joy to sit next to) suggests that I practice diligently instead of complaining and then get in a good wind ensemble.
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2006-02-06 07:01
Difficult. I don't think criticism is going to work. Some thoughts, therefore:
1. Compliment them whenever they have (relatively) good moments. Every player has good moments.
2. Talk about reeds. All clarinetists can talk about reeds. It's the universal ice-breaker, and a good way into issues of tone and technique.
3. Open the conversation on a matter-fo-fact technical issue, something like, 'Isn't it hard to play really loud in so-and-so piece, without going flat?' Then you can hope for either 'Yes, what do you suggest?' or 'Oh, I hadn't noticed, I'll look out for that.'
The important thing to remember is that if you're in a bad mood when you tackle this you're guaranteed to say all the wrong things...
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-02-06 07:15
I have made a roundabout comment that went like this:
"If you're finding your altissimo E and F getting a bit flat due to your lip getting tired, try opening the throat G# or A key to sharpen it."
Although I was implying they're playing flat up top but didn't say it in a harmful way, I think I got away with it.
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2006-02-06 08:51
Chris P -
If your approach was 'everyone faces this problem (isn't it interesting?)', not 'you have a problem', then you probably got away with it. But saying things the right way is very hard. When people are annoyed, they tend to say things the wrong way. Catch-22.
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Author: cdgaflash
Date: 2006-02-06 16:46
Hi,
"You can lead a horse to water..."
I am in the same situation in a Community Band that I play in... One of the players in my section, though technically, is quite good, his overall tone/support, especially in high registers, is not.
I had talked with him last summer about using stiffer reeds (even gave him a box); mouthpieces (he did switch); ligs, even clarinets- I even said that I would spend some time with him to work on reeds, or have him try different mouthpieces-
I have since sent out "general" e-mails to the entire section talking about tone, dyanamics and blending (within the section/with the rest of the band). It did spur some thought/change on part of others in the section.
This fall, the director and I held an audition for a chair in the first section. He and his wife auditioned. Prior to the audition, individually, both asked about what they could do to improve. I reiterated all that I had said to him before... I even suggested that he play his audition on his wife's clarinet. (As it worked out, his wife won the chair, as her tone/control was much better than others that had auditioned) The "mental addition" that I thought would have happened, didn't...
After last week's rehearsal, someone came up to me and said that she was going to talk with him about his tone and almost did so in the middle of the rehearsal...
This is a tough one, as I know that folks are volunteering their time to play in the group. Bottom line is that I have to keep in mind that it is a Community Band and NOT the Phiharmonic, but to have someone "stick out" in a not so good way, is NOT a good thing either.
I am going to have talk with him again- Any other suggestions?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-02-06 17:16
I think I'll let it go for the next couple of weeks - we've got a rehearsal tomorrow for a concert this weekend (a joint concert with 2 other concert bands as well as playing several pieces jointly as one huge massed concert band - imagine the noise of all thse screechy clarinets together!) and the following week there's no rehearsal as the schools are on half term - so I'll wait until after this short break as things will have quietened down by then, and I hope no-one will feel they're under pressure - and I might have summoned up enough tact to deal with this matter.
At the moment it's the organisation of this concert that seems to be more important than the general playing standards, though I wish it was the other way round.
If I get results then who knows where I could turn to next - though the tenor and bari saxes need a huge shake-up too, not to mention the oboes! Just shows how they've let themselves go since I left those sections - it's like the blind leading the blind there, and woe betide anyone that steps on their toes (which I did the last time - the 1st oboe player is a committe member and didn't take kindly to me taking the solos, even though I could do the job with both hands behind my back! Usual band politics I suppose).
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Author: pzaur
Date: 2006-02-06 18:24
I was playing clarinet in one of the local community colleges and we (the clarinets) sat in front of the trumpet(s). It was trumpets when more than one actually showed up. Anyways, the principal trumpeter was a "true lead jazz trumpeter." Everything was always higher and louder. No offense to jazz trumpeters, just the stereotype he fit perfectly. He even fancied himself a jazzer and thought he was doing the orchestra a favor by gracing us with his presence.
Moving on.
I got tired of leaving rehearsal in pain, so, before the trumpet showed up for rehearsal, me and the two other clarinets grabbed 5 stands and postitioned them directly behind our heads to block his strident tone. He took the hint, as it really pissed him off. We had tried talking to him earlier.
His immediate response to the stands was "Now no one will hear me in the audience." Thankfully, one of the other orchestra members replied with "Not likely," just loud enough for everyone to hear. Everyone had a quick chuckle, except for the trumpet who was thoroughly pissed off.
He played softer from then on.
Moral - Not the best way to approach the situation, but sometimes you just need to be extremely blunt and bludgeon the offender with truth.
As for a suggestion for the clarinet without tone. Ask the offender if he has ever recorded himself and then listened to it. Everyone should do this since what a player hears is not what a listener hears.
-pat
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2006-02-06 18:43
Chris P --
When I was first doing church directing, a wise pastor told me that "they won't care how much you know, until they know how much you care."
While I don't think that phraseology was original with him, it has always proved a good touchstone for me. Peoples' egos are on the line here, and as a previous poster correctly stated, this band may mean a GREAT deal more to some of the "bad" players than it does to you or me or other johnny-come-latelies with superior chops. We have options. They may not.
So, one of the things that got me through years of church sopranos was to remember that this was their gig as much as, or more than, it was mine. I always had the option to move on (and, from time to time, I did). For many of them, this was an organization to which they had devoted their lives, and which they counted on to be there for them.
The only time I have seen any real uptick in the standards in a community or church group was when the initiative came from the director. And there are right/wrong ways to go about this, too.
I have seen two cases (one choral, one instrumental) in which a director just plugged in his/her own people in critical (i.e., solo chair) slots, without running it through the council or committee. This created enormous hard feelings within the groups, and led in both cases to the director's forced resignation.
Our present community band director is trying -- gently -- to upgrade the band's playing standard (something the previous director had pretty well given up on before he resigned). I happen to think he could be a tad more aggressive about this, and he may well be, as he begins his second year. But he has not alienated anyone, and the membership is growing -- which will have its own salutary effect.
This is pretty much the approach I took with a particularly floundering "traditional" church choir, whose membership had dwindled dangerously. I accepted all comers, told them continually that the work they were doing was important and valuable to the congregation (community). Over the course of a few years, the group grew substantially and became very cohesive -- they WANTED to do better, and they did.
So, improvement in a community group is likely a long-term proposition. If you are committed to the group, you might be able to help. If you are a short-timer or a ringer, your well-intentioned efforts at improving them may actually do more harm than good.
Susan
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2006-02-06 18:52
Without the director taking the lead on this, you'll not get very far. As long as bad tone is tolerated and even rewarded, you won't make much headway for change. It's been my experience that people in that position are so self-centered that they don't notice anyone else's good tone--or bad tone.
We've got a clarinet player in our community band who has an absolutely horrible tone and I've given her mouthpieces, reeds and tuning barrels. People have complained and it's to no avail because the director doesn't want to "confront" the problem. So, I'm just being patient with the situation for now. Anyway, my point is that you'll either have to accept it or work hard to change it. You might have to be straight forward with the group and say what you think. Or, perhaps have someone come in and evaluate the overall sound and give comments afterward.
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