 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Meri
Date: 2006-01-20 17:58
I have a student who is 10, who makes reasonable progress in lessons, but hardly ever practices, and the parents don't believe in quitting music lessons. (her two sisters also take lessons, on violin and flute respectively, they are at Grade 6 RCM (Royal Conservatory of Music) violin and Grade 4 flute). She is at lesson 20 in the Galper Clarinet Method, and she's been studying for 9 months, has a fine tone throughout her range, though her right hand positioning is a little questionable. She is rewarded for the weeks she does practice, but her mom and I are at our wit's end at having her do it, without physical rewards and doing it consistently, even though she enjoys the lessons. She's also in a gifted French Immersion program at school.
Any ideas that you know that might help?
Meri
"There is a difference between being flat and sounding in tune, and being in tune but sounding flat. The first I can live with; the second I cannot."
Post Edited (2006-01-20 18:37)
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Author: Tom W
Date: 2006-01-20 19:06
I'm assuming that her "gifted" program is the same as it is in the states - top 2% iq. Both of my children, 14 and 8 are gifted and they generate most of their satisfaction by learning something (not by doing it). Neither one can be forced into doing anything if they don't want to. You'll have to find a way to make her want to learn and I'm guessing it won't be by repetition.
My son hardly ever practices outside of school and easily made the all-county band this year and was chosen to be in this year's all-state honors band so don't give up.
Do some research on "gifted" on the net and find out which one of the six types she is.
Best of luck,
Tom W.
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2006-01-20 19:26
Meri wrote:
>> ....her mom and I are at our wit's end at having her do it, without physical rewards and doing it consistently, even though she enjoys the lessons.>>
My mother used to say to me, "...if you don't practise a reasonable amount, we'll sell it. We need the money."
It was enough for me.
Tony
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Author: Gandalfe
Date: 2006-01-20 20:08
My sister blames the parents for 'letting' her quit piano lessons. I found the impetus to continue because periodically the parents commented on the excellence of my playing. My cousins who are professional musicians were forced to do lessons. There is no one solution out there.
Jim and Suzy
Pacifica Big Band
Seattle, Washington
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Author: larryb
Date: 2006-01-20 20:21
maybe she's figured out the secret of making progress without practicing - why should she be punished for that?
I wish I had a fine tone throughout the range without having to practice
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Author: archer1960
Date: 2006-01-20 20:30
Larry essentially echoed my thoughts. If she's making decent progress, I wouldn't push her. 10 years is still pretty young. You might start basing privileges on progress rather than practicing...
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-01-20 20:55
Not push. [Most] people grow with challenge.
Not "I want you to practice now" but rather "I want you to master a piece of your choice by end of next month."
--
Ben
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2006-01-20 20:56
I started playing clarinet at around that age and barely practiced 20 minutes a day until reaching high school, at which point I somehow being self-motivated and started 'shedding' without 'encouragement' from my Dad. Somehow, 35 years later, I'm still playing and enjoying music. So I wouldn't worry about it too much.
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Author: Clari9801SC
Date: 2006-01-20 22:39
My sister and I had to practice on our instruments for at least 30 minutes. That was not unreasonable. Believe you me, I tried not practicing for a while and lost my embochure! It also helps if you have a weak jaw such as myself to strengthen it. I progressed rapidly (I started at 15 on Clarinet) and withing 1 1/2 yrs had gone through three comprhensive band method books, given I did not play in hs band.
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2006-01-20 23:20
Sounds like a student I have. He is in 7th grade, aged 12, and has been studying with me for 2+ years. He is very very bright; in fact, he's told me multiple times he has a genius level IQ (I do too, so I can just say "so what" to him...cause it really doesn't matter).
He would come into lessons and sight-read them. His mom told me he rarely practiced, and his school band director doesn't have a clue he doesn't really practice either, based on his ability.
One day about 3 weeks ago I figured I had had it. I shoved Baermann III in front of him and made him sight read some of the exercises. I then took out Rose 32 and had him look at #1 & #2. After he had read some of the Baermann exercises, he said that it was "strangely fun." So I put a 7th grader in books I didn't touch until 10th grade (largely cause I didn't take lessons in 7th grade...).
Now he practices. His mom gave him the added threat of making him pay her back the $25 total for the 2 books if he didn't practice enough.
Stories from the trench...
Katrina
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2006-01-20 23:27
After reading through this list I'm think that people who want to teach might benefit from some really basic college level courses in teaching. Most of problems in motivation I'm reading about here are covered in the basic material.
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Author: Tony Beck
Date: 2006-01-21 01:19
Mark, I'd agree with you. I don't teach music but was a flight instructor for 8 years. The Aircraft Owners and Pilot's Assn. has some great material on basic learning and how to teach technical material to non-technical students. They give a fantastic weekend seminar too. Skip the stuff about the FAA and spend a day in the learning session. It was flat out the best weekend seminar I ever attended. It will change the way you teach.
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Author: bcl1dso
Date: 2006-01-21 02:17
I would say that if they don't practice and they have no intention of making anything out of it then you can't make them. It is extremely frustrating as a teacher but if they parents can't make them then you don't even have a chance. But I don't care how smart a person is or how much talent they have you have to practice to be the best. You just have to.
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Author: nickma
Date: 2006-01-21 10:29
As long as conversations regarding her practising continue to start with 'I want you to' there's a likelihood of getting nowhere.
At age of 10 most kids don't want to be the best. And who can blame them? The world is competitive enough thereafter to justify not worrying about competing with siblings and mummy and daddy's expectations.
Surely the key is to grow her love of music, ensuring she at least does a few minutes practising, even if the practising isn't part of the track laid out for her by the teaching method. How about asking her what she wants to play from time to time? After all it's not about YOU, its about HER.
At one point she'll find her motivation through the love or enjoyment of it, and then the dynamic will change.
Nick
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2006-01-21 14:55
bcl1dso said:
But I don't care how smart a person is or how much talent they have you have to practice to be the best.
My comments:
That was exactly my point above, since the material in the intermediate book was not interesting or challenging enough for my student. If he can sight read his lessons with only one or two minor mistakes, in 7th grade, then it's an issue of him not having challenging enough material.
I had debated with myself about bumping him to Rubank Advanced, but due to two years of experience with this kid, I knew he needed more of a challenge.
He does need to practice, and he needs stimulating material to practice instead of stuff he can play correctly the 2nd time.
Katrina
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Author: Clari9801SC
Date: 2006-01-21 16:06
If this kid loves challenges, and I am pretty sure that he does, then by far go for it. My teacher certainly did. Have you ever noticed that students with learning disabilities (such as myself) pick up on musical instruments fairly quick because it does not lose interest?
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Author: Meri
Date: 2006-01-21 16:47
I might try her on the RCM Grade 4 music and studies (she's working at the Grade 2 level right now, and there is a plan for her to do the Grade 2 RCM), then, she is a good sight-reader. And I've planned a short playing test in a couple of weeks, something she was overdue for (I do them every 2-3 months with each student).
I also know she's really into Magna and Japanese anime. I have found a couple of pieces that that fits her range and rhythm skills online, which I have printed. She's also really into art and drawing, so I might make some connections between music history and art.
Meri
"There is a difference between being flat and sounding in tune, and being in tune but sounding flat. The first I can live with; the second I cannot."
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Author: JGR Clarinet
Date: 2006-01-22 21:52
Well, I'm taking lessons. I practice a lot when the piece or whatever I'm working on is hard. If I get something that is hard I practice a lot. When I get something that is easy or not that difficult I practice, but not that much.
So I hope that helps a little.
-Jaime
(JGR Clarinet)
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Author: BlockEyeDan
Date: 2006-01-22 23:22
When I was that age, I can confidently state that a Julliard student practiced more in one day than I did all year. I don't recommend it for everyone, but I managed to survive..... LOL
BlockEyeDan
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Author: blewis
Date: 2006-01-23 03:52
I'm with nickma,
I'm not a musician and this is just my thought, so of course, take this or leave it.
I teach very young children to read and the best learners basically love stories. They are "intrinsically" motivated because they want to experience the thrill of being taken to another place so to speak, by reading. They play with the stories, do plays about them, add their own characters..etc.
They associate reading with enjoyment and pleasure, friendship etc. So they push themselves to learn to read beyond their current ability. They want to read on their own.
Find out what the student likes, loves etc. and try to pick pieces with those things in mind. Particular style? Particular artist? and let him be drawn by that. If he needs to practice to get a desired piece down chances are he will. Does the history of a particular piece interest him? Life of the composer or artist? (This probably sounds obvious but I thought I'd comment.)
My music teaching is limited to preschoolers so I very well may not know what I'm talking about but it's what they love that gets them jumping, dancing, squealing..lol... I can't "make" them do that. And in their play they can do some impressive things.
Not that we can all just "play" into the mastery of something but you get the idea. If he can be drawn to a piece then his work (practice) will follow.
Also, finding pieces just beyond his reach..just a little further than what he's done will help him to push a little to get to the new goal. I would just keep giving him little by little more challenging things to accomplish. I'm stating the obvious now.
Sorry to go on and on.
jmho,
blewis
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Author: ned
Date: 2006-01-23 04:03
''He is very very bright; in fact, he's told me multiple times he has a genius level IQ (I do too, so I can just say "so what" to him...cause it really doesn't matter).''
But, seemingly, neither have a genius level of humility.
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Author: elmo lewis
Date: 2006-01-23 19:12
The material is not challenging enough for this student. Give him more pages every week or, once he plays through his lesson, have him sight read the next lesson. Any piece he reads perfectly cross off so he doesn't have to work on it at home. Make it a game to see how many pieces he can eliminate. Tell him that once he can play his lesson at home that he should continue with the next lessons and work as far ahead as he can on his own. Tell him that you want to finish the book ASAP so you can go on to something more interesting. This is not pressuring-let him decide how much he can do in a week. Sooner or later you will get to material that he will have to practice and really work on to be able to play.
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Author: Meri
Date: 2006-02-10 00:20
Just an update on this situation: she has practiced almost every day for over two weeks now, and the spark seems to have been re-kindled. With her interest in manga and Japanese anime, I found a couple of pieces that are within her ability (and one stretches her rhythmically a little), and she told me at her lesson today she wants to learn Mancini's The Pink Panther, which I happen to have the sheet music for! I'm also using a practice chart with her, which every day she practices for at least 30 mins, she earns a star, and each day she practices, the amount of time practiced is written in. She only had 3 days she did not practice in the last 2 weeks, and none were consecutive. I may eventually add weekly and monthly goals as she advances and gets used to the charts.
Meri
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2006-02-10 12:15
Congratulations on finding ways to motivate this student! Since those practice charts work for her, maybe you could find some special-looking stickers at an arts-and-crafts store or a music store, to mark achieving the weekly and monthly goals.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: joeyscl
Date: 2007-02-17 03:45
As used to dislike practicing, but as i got older, i just started practicing by myself... more.. and more.... and more.... to the extent that It's taking away my Computer time! (well, i dont really "do" my homework yet somehow i finish them...)
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2007-02-17 16:12
When I was teaching for Kline Studion back in the 60s, the boss gave me two great students (keeping most of the good ones for himself). The rest improved during their lessons and then coasted the rest of the week.
it wa OK, my job (although frustrating as the devil) --as long as the parents paid their bill!
Bob Phillips
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Author: Sarah Elbaz
Date: 2007-02-17 20:03
Meri,
When I read your post and some of the answers and suggestions I get the "objective" feeling that I live on a different planet.
You wrote that the student makes good progress in the lessons. That's exactly the mistake!
You don't measure student's progress from lesson to lesson but from one concert to another.
If a student is playing 9 mounth, then after the first 3 mounth they should start playing concerts at least once a mounth.
Usually students who don't practice find out in the concert that their progress was fata morgana.
Concerts should be a rutine! In one mouth a student can learn at least 5 new melodies or songs and choose 2-3 songs to play in the concert.
That will give them a very good reason to practice, and will keep a high level of interest during the year.
And BTW, I don't think that lesson 20 in Galper's book is good progress for 9 mounth. If they practice regularly, after 9 mounth they should be able to play three octavs and much more complexed exercises and melodies.
Sarah
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Author: mk
Date: 2007-02-17 21:31
the good news.....clarinetists are not required to fly by instrumentation in bad weather!
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Author: bawa
Date: 2007-02-18 18:11
Surely the lessons should move according to ability.
My daughter's teacher's moves them through different materials (scales, studies, works) as they progress: people in the same grade may be playing completely different things, and students theoretically ahead in years might be working on the same pieces of music. Etudes that are relevant to some are not so much needed by others, etc.
The part about recitals is also relevant. In the end, being able to perform should be one of the goals, and it is a totally different cup of tea to play in front of an audience.
I also read about the 21 day rule on violinist.com pages. It basically means that in order to form a habit you must do it for 21 days continuously, and then you will "miss" not doing it. If you miss one day, you have to start again.
Here is the detailed procedure
http://www.violinist.com/blog/laurie/20063/4647/
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2007-02-19 12:35
If recitals are an important goal, does that mean that kids who can't play in recitals due to stage fright should give up playing? I think that playing for enjoyment and challenge in private, at home, is a worthwhile goal as well.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: Sarah Elbaz
Date: 2007-02-19 14:37
Lelia,
The concert is not a goal, it is part of rhe training and should be a rutine like practicing. When children are playing concerts from the begining they will not be frightened.
Sarah
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2007-02-19 14:56
Sarah Elbaz wrote:
> When children are playing
> concerts from the begining they will not be frightened.
I'm sorry, that's not always true. I have known children who have stage fright (akin to a panic attack) and this has carried over into adulthood. Mandating that they play in concerts would have had them give up one of the things they truly loved.
Exceptions always happen.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2007-02-20 11:19
Sarah Elbaz wrote:
> Mark,
> As you said, it is an exception.
Sarah, I'm believing it's the language "barrier", but oftentimes what you write sounds more like dogma than what I know are your personal experiences. Those experiences are very valuable to share with us, of course.
There are more than just a few people who have disabling stage fright, and some of those people are professional musicians. We've had long and involved discussions here about drugs assisting that condition, in fact. See the Keepers section.
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Author: Sarah Elbaz
Date: 2007-02-20 15:18
Hi Mark,
Yes, there is a language barrier and a cultural barrier too. But there are also different opinions.
I would like to write much more about that, but can't do it now because I just moved to a new appartement and there is a mess around me. I am not trying to avoid this debat - I will write more soon!
Sarah
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2007-02-20 15:43
Sarah Elbaz wrote:
> I would like to write much more about that, but can't do it now
> because I just moved to a new appartement and there is a mess
> around me.
The drug discussion will not be re-opened without considerable cause. http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=20&i=41&t=41 contains most of the relevant discussion. Unless there is new and important data points to add, it'll remain closed.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2007-02-20 20:36
Meri, you had some success by tapping into the music the child liked.
I once had a similar problem and a similar solution. I often wrote out sheet music from a recording that the child liked. The child then had the goal of playing along with the recording.
Sometimes a liked melody was rather simple, and a recording was not involved. So I wrote it out in a key that would provide a little challenge.
I also relied on the scales and "exercises" that occurred within the music, rather than making a big deal of separate scales and studies. The material can can be covered in many ways.
A young child must enjoy the practicing in order to continue doing it, unless the child is a slave driver's robot.
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Author: bawa
Date: 2007-02-21 16:45
Re recitals: All the students in all the years give one or two recitals, plus their band recitals.
One of the nicest ones every year is when the clarinet teacher puts together duos/trios/quartets, and for a lot of them pairs a beginner/younger student with an older student. They thus get to know all the other clarinet players. When they play, the older ones provide "backing", musical and otherwise. These recitals have been very successful and the clarinet teacher is the only one going to this trouble.
Also, the setting in terms of clothes and fuss is informal: with the large number of students, there maybe a couple of recitals every evening of different groups/instruments over a period of few weeks: so its special, but not that much.
Mark, I have not seen an instance of stage fright of the kind you describe in them, and of course it is not advisable for such students.
Actually, the one instance I have seen the same person rush off the stage after going blank (in two different performances) was one of the older students (not clarinet), child of professional players . Apparently they insisted teenager play without sheet music and this person went blank or could not handle the pressure.
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Author: Sarah Elbaz
Date: 2007-02-21 17:35
Mark,
What I wrote is not a dogma, it is my reality.
My students are practicing and are happy to do it because their life are full of music and interest.
And yes they play concerts, even more then once a month and don't panic. I am inviting you and everyone else to the Israel Conservatory in Striker street , every Thursday from 19:00-21:00, room 105, students concert. My students will always be there, and I too.
There are 6 young students in my class in Tel Aviv (17 and younger), and 3 of them already played as soloists with professional orchestras, then with all the respect Mark, I am not talking about an utopian student.
Sarah
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Author: Meri
Date: 2007-02-26 18:47
Another update: The girl started band this school year (band starts in Grade 6 at her school), and while we're mostly concentrating on fun music (such as Christopher Norton's Microjazz for Clarinet (anyone seen these?)and her band parts for school, we still are working through a little bit of the RCM Grade 6 material. (she did her Grade 4 clarinet last January and got an 86) She's practicing more regularly, perhaps because it now counts towards her grade in school. We've got her playing at church services at the church my boyfriend is music director at (they pay students $25 to play a couple of pieces, one for prelude, the other for postlude), plus the 2-3 times yearly student concerts I host which includes solos, duets, trios, and even a clarinet ensemble!
Meri
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