 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Bigno16
Date: 2006-01-16 04:38
I'm sure you all know that 95% of my posts have been about me complaining that I can't tongue correctly/well/fast, etc. And I apologize for my constant whining. I must have over 20 different suggestions of exercises and ideas to try. Yet, something must be mentally wrong with me that it seems almost impossible to fix these problems of mine.
I just completed my first semester of college at UMass Amherst. I made the Wind Ensemble and the Orchestra, which is very unusual for a freshman. Not only did I make them, but I played 1st part in both of them. Having played pieces like Young Person's Guide to the Orchestra, Dvorak's Symphony No. 8, Medea's Meditation and Dance of Vengeance, and Tchaikovsky's Symphony No. 5, and some people thought that I was a graduate student before they knew who I was. A lot of people think that I'm really good and should have even gone to a better school.
Yet, how embarassing it is to know that when it comes to articulation, I still feel like a beginner, which knocks me down to just an average player. Everyone says it is so easy once you learn it correctly, but is it supposed to be incredibly difficult to learn it as well? Such a simple and small motion should be so easy, but it's not. The problem is mostly that I can't tell if I'm doing it right or not when I try to fix it. And I get very easily upset and irritated about it, usually causing me to just feel overwhelmed and not get anything done in practice. Could it be that I am just mentally not prepared for this? I think the biggest problem is that I expect it to be fixed relatively quickly (ie. overnight) and get upset when that is not the case. How long should it take me to overcome this obstacle and be able to articulate correctly?I know this is my biggest weakness and it will bring me down if I let it get the best of me. Hopefully that is not the case. I mean, I'm in college now and studying to get my degrees and make way for a professional career. And I just can't seem to make the QUICK and LIGHT actions effortless. It always seems forced. How bad is it that I am having these difficulties still?
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2006-01-16 04:52
It can take a long time to get right, and there are different levels of "right." Do you have a private teacher? What does s/he have to say about it?
How long? A couple weeks, a year or two. Depends.
For what it's worth, it could very well be that articulation is not at all the problem, but rather a symptom of a lax sense of time, motion, and energy.
Playing the clarinet, or any instrument for that matter, is not something that can be done by executing steps in order. It is a fluid process. There are things you can practice in order to facilitate quicker tonguing, but if you are still thinking "tongue fast, tongue fast" rather than "get from here to there," progress will be slow.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: ClariBone
Date: 2006-01-16 06:08
Is your teacher working with you to correct this fault?? I'd assume so, if it distresses you as much as you discribed above. You shouldn't get soo upset. The best way to fix your tonguing is methodical practice. Start slow, and always use a light, seemingly effortless stroke. Then build speed. I'm sure others with more experience and advice will reply, but that's my advice as of now. Good Luck!!!
Clayton
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2006-01-16 07:16
Everyone has trouble with something - I guess this is just yours. Me, my sight reading's atrocious. Probably related to the fact I have no patience with scales.
Equipment is always the last resort to fix a problem - but in my experience, articulation is different on different reeds and mouthpieces. Maybe it's time to branch out a bit in this respect if you haven't already. I'm not saying different equipment will be 'better', but that learning the skill might be easier *for you* on something else. Just my 2c worth. Everyone's head is different inside.
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2006-01-16 13:13
Here are two insights that have helped me get over my frustrating, brick-wall hurdles:
The first:
I was whining to my teacher about not being able to play something well, no matter how hard I tried. She looked at me and said, "People spend their entire lives trying to master this piece. Why do you think you should be able to play it perfectly after two weeks?"
Touche!
The second (from "A Soprano on Her Head," by Eloise Ristad -- which is NOT a book about singing):
She writes, "The need to be a super-person is an affliction that strikes many of us. . . .," and goes on to suggest that we give ourselves the permission to fail. She suggests that one TRY to play something poorly: "Play a caricature of a bad sight reader." "Show us how to play a breathy tone." Or, in your case, show us how to articulate poorly.
"When we give ourselves permission to fail, we at the same time give ourselves permission to excel. . . . failing is not failing after all, but merely learning, if we can tune in to the information available in all our experiencing and not attach labels of good/bad or success/failure to experiences."
So, find out what you actually are doing, by observing rather than judging yourself, because then you have the opportunity to do something about it, rather than just getting upset and disgusted about your "failures".
Hey, it works for me!
Susan
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Author: TonkaToy
Date: 2006-01-16 13:20
Ah, tonguing.
For me, as it seems for you, tonguing was my nemesis. It wasn't really horrible, just not what it needed to be. My sticking point was that I could tongue repeated notes fine, but in a passage where the notes changed I couldn't seem to tongue as fast as I needed to sometimes and would get tense which exaberated the problem, slowing me down even more.
My "Eureka" moment was understanding that rapid tonguing in a non repeated passage had less to do with the speed of my tonging than with how even my fingers were. The slightest deviation from the beat caused my tongue to be out of sync with my fingers.
My solution? (and yours may be different) Slow, even playing. Making sure that there wasn't the slightest variation in tempo or length of notes. My teacher, a Bonade student was a great believer in slow playing and "soft" fingers. The combination of very slow practice while always thinking about "soft fingers" was the remedial exercise that I needed to overcome my fear of rapid tonguing.
Again, this my not solve your problem but I hope it is food for thought.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2006-01-16 13:34
Tonguing is all about the air. If your tongue is too tense than it will slow you down a lot. Try using this syllable
thee (like key)
with a LOT of air. Don't hit the reed hard with your tongue.
Also, consider learning to double tongue to take the pressure off of yourself.
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2006-01-16 13:47
TonkaToy -
Yes, I forgot: there's two separate problems. Clean articulation, and articulation that's synchronised with your fingers! I think you're right to say relaxation is key. When faced by synchronisation failure, I find the following works wonders:
1. Stop!
2. Put down clarinet.
3. Shake hands vigorously.
4. Say 'Fleflefleflefleflefleflefle' in imitation of what you've just played
5. Laugh with your mates.
If you get wound up about it it'll only get worse.
The trick is to move those fingers as little, and as gently, as possible.
Which is it with you, Bigno16?
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2006-01-16 14:11
I recently had a flute lesson. It was made pretty clear to me that flute players don't worry about single tonguing. The teacher was astounded how fast I could single tongue on flute but it isn't impressive as most flutists use double tonguing and make it sound like single. Maybe you should take up the flute. (kidding) Find a guru of double tonguing and dedicate yourself to the task. Not wishing to discourage you but I think gradual measures might not really work in this case. Focus, dedication, determination, intensity..........I don't think "tricks" are what you need. Ignoring the problem(which you are not) might lead to you being no further ahead 20 years down the road. Realistic not pessimistic
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2006-01-16 14:18
You write:
>> I must have over 20 different suggestions of exercises and ideas to try.>>
...so it's possible you've already seen what follows.
Actually, I should rewrite the reference I'm about to post, as the first three sections, about metaphors in general, tend to put people off, and I think I'd actually write it better today.
However, there are 6 metaphors related to the use of the tongue in the remainder of the article that encapsulate what I was forced as a young player to discover for myself, being in much the same situation as you.
http://test.woodwind.org/Databases/Klarinet/1999/09/000395.txt
There's another metaphor, too, in the final part of:
http://test.woodwind.org/Databases/Klarinet/1999/12/000878.txt
...that you might find useful. Practice going between one princess and the other, noticing that the tongue contact remains equally light. Sounds attractive, no?
(You have to read the article to make sense of that:-)
Tony
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Author: Bigno16
Date: 2006-01-16 16:04
Thanks everyone.
To answer some questions, it seems that my problem is more of just a nice clean articulation. For instance, even just starting a note nice and crisply and cleanly is difficult sometimes. Again, perhaps it's a problem with tension and not keeping the air constant. It feels like I'm forcing it and tonguing hard, especially with staccato. And perhaps that causes the problem with speed? That's what I worry about most, that I won't be able to tongue quickly and lightly enough when I am asked to.
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2006-01-16 16:22
Staccato, in particular, works better with a really, really bitchin' reed! You mention that starting notes is unsatisfactory to you --maybe you need to do some reed experimentation. The mouthpiece facing is also a contributor to starting the reed to vibrate.
The above advice to assure that your fingers and tongue coordinate is excellent, too. I've recently made a breakthrough in my tongue/finger coordination; and that's a relief.
From a vibration dyanamics standpoint:
It takes a few cycles of the reed to stabilize the clarinet's tone production. The reed wants to vibrate its own (quite high) frequency and must be adjusted to match the tube resonance that you're imposing on the clarinet with your fingering.
The things that make the reed responsive to the transition from sitting still through its own resonance frequency to the frequency of the note that you are playing include:
Its stiffness and mass,
The lay of the mouthpiece,
The note you are trying to play,
The damping (not dampening --that's spit!) of the reed/lip.
The stiffness of the reed depends on the lay of the moutpiece and the hardness of the reed --and on the distribution of lip pressure on the reed. You can fiddle with your lower lip and your embochure muscles all day and not make as much difference as a change of reed.
In terms of making the transient short, stiffer and more damped is better.
With respect to coordinating fingers and tongue:
If you change the fingering while the reed is starting up, your reed will have to go through a longer transition from being still to synchronizing with the clarinet. You can demonstrate this to yourself by "smearing" a finger against a tone hole while at the same time starting the tone by letting the reed go with your tongue.
BTW: I'll bet you're doing just fine and that you will continue to improve --just know that its a coordination challenge
.... and fiddle with your mpc/reed combination.
Bob Phillips
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Author: bcl1dso
Date: 2006-01-16 16:24
A very good suggestion would b eto stop trying to hit the reed but rather make the sound stop. By doing this you will think lighter. Also Other people may not do this but when I single tongue I think of double tonguing but not actually doing it. It makes you think light. Your equipment could also be a problem because a mouthpiece can make so much of a difference.
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Author: TonkaToy
Date: 2006-01-16 17:55
Veeery Interesting
"For instance, even just starting a note nice and crisply and cleanly is difficult sometimes. Again, perhaps it's a problem with tension and not keeping the air constant. It feels like I'm forcing it and tonguing hard, especially with staccato."
It sounds as if part of your problem may very well be too rigid a setup and too hard of a reed. I think that so many times it's a cop out to blame our problems on equipment, but........ An old teacher related a story to me once about a former student of his who won a very nice job in a top tier orchestra and came to play for my teacher before beginning his first season. My teacher was appalled at his set up. His student had become fixated on getting a "dark" sound to the exclusion of every other facet of his playing. He couldn't tongue well enough, his legato was suffering, but he had to have his "dark" tone. The point of this story? My teacher's student lasted one year in the orchestra. You've got to have equipment that allows you to do the things you have to do.
After posting my initial comments I thought of something else that was a big help to me in increasing my tonguing speed. It's another exercise I did with my former teacher who was a Bonade student. It seems that Bonade called this particular exercise "stop tonguing". Here goes. Recognizing that the sound produced when we articulate is not caused by the tongue striking the reed but by the release of the tongue Bonade suggested this: Playing a C Major scale ( or any scale you'd like), articulate a note and then dampen the tongue on the reed while still continuing to blow. Move your fingers ahead to the next note of the scale, release the tongue from the reed in order to sound the next note of the scales, and then immediately stop the tone while continuing to blow. Continue up and down the scale. The objective is twofold. Make the shortest possible sound, and concentrate on where your tongue is striking the reed. It seems conterintuative, but doing this on a couple of scales every day seems to help your tongue find the "best" place on the reed and also provides you with a beautiful short staccato.
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2006-01-16 18:00
Just last week, I wrote the following about clean articulation (on the oboe board hosted on this server):
http://test.woodwind.org/oboe/BBoard/read.html?f=10&i=2740&t=2740
I wouldn't be too surprised if a similar technique was useful to clarinetists, as well.
Since the post, I have refined the concept a bit. It involves freeing up the embouchure (which is what happens when you get *really* good breath support -- as if you were breathing into the gluteus maximus), getting the air very high in the oral cavity ("in the mask"), and then getting the tongue out of the way.
I think what I have been doing in the past is NOT getting that support in place, NOT getting the air up high enough/fast enough, and actually putting the tongue IN the way, rather than pulling it OUT of the way.
Working with the technique described in my oboe board post has made a remarkable improvement in not only my initial articulation, but in my ability to play through the whole phrase "in line" and in tune.
You might want to give it a try.
Susan
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Author: bcl1dso
Date: 2006-01-16 18:57
The Bonade technique is called the finger ahead method., works good, but don't get over obsessed with it
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Author: D
Date: 2006-01-16 21:20
Have you tried recording your self tonguing using different techniques, to see what other people are hearing? Do a set excercise over and over using several of the methods people have suggested. It probably wont sound right in your head, but at least when playing back, you can see the 'real' effect it is having on your projected sound, and what that is like in comparison to what is coming to you via bones and skin as well as ears. It might help you shift something in the right direction - or at least note that one or two methods are definately not the right direction for you.
Best of luck, sounds like you are having a bit of a nightmare!
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Author: Phurster
Date: 2006-01-16 23:37
I have great symphathy for your problem. I went through similar issues myself and I am sure most players are constantly dealing with the same problems.
My ideas:
1. Less is more.
2. The sound of the release is not influenced by how hard you strike the reed as much as you think.
3. Air support and oral cavity positions are factors as well as finger coordination.
4. Think about the musical context and the type of desired release.
5. Have a clear image of the ideal sound.
6. Practice slowly, calmly and carefully.
7. Be patient.
8. Have lessons with a player whose sound and tonguing you admire.
9. Be careful with reed selection.
10. Experiment with differing set ups.
11. Be aware we all sound differently.
12. Think high on the reed and light.
13. Go and have a pint and be aware of other problems in the world.
14. Cherish what you do well and work on what you don't.
Good luck.
Chris
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2006-01-17 11:58
Most of you must have read the "Tony" metaphors before but they are an amazing bit of new pedagogy for me.
Thank you Tony and the "fairy princesses."
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: smross
Date: 2006-01-17 12:16
Something that helps me conceptualize proper tongue placement (and consequently proper tonguing in general) is this: play a note (like open G for instance) and then slowly bring the tip of your tongue forward until it is barely touching the reed, all the while continuing to produce sound. It should be like the reed is "tickling" your tongue, or something to that effect. After getting used to this feeling, barely bring the tongue back in a repeated motion and tongue a string of sixteenth notes rapidly (remembering that there is truly little motion of the tongue taking place). That should be how it feels to tongue rapidly.
Also, when I get so caught up in practicing a passage with a lot of articulation, I often forget the other elements of playing, primarily AIR SUPPORT. Never abandon this. Push the air stream beyond the tongue all the way through the resonance of sound. Hope this helps!
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