 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Pathik
Date: 2006-01-04 12:42
Hi all,
I'm new to this BB, found it just today, and I'm quite thrilled at finding a forum that's suitable for clarinet fanatics like me. I'm 48 years old and have just recently started playing the clarinet again after a break of 28 years. My old clarinet is long gone, so I bought a new Buffet E11 Bb clarinet in September last year, which I thought might be just about good enough for me. However, I'm already thinking about upgrading (it sounds crazy and it probably is), because I thought I might as well go for something that I could be happy with forever (relatively speaking). I can afford an upgrade, especially because I would get most of what I spent on the E11 back from the Internet shop I bought it from, so money isn't really an issue. I think maybe I settled for the E11 because I didn't quite muster up enough courage to get something more "professional", expensive and better, and perhaps I wasn't entirely sure I would stick with it. It's clear to me now however that I do want to stick with it for as long as I may live, and that makes a difference.
I'm considering getting the Buffet R13 Greenline model. Does anyone reading this have any experience with this clarinet? As far as playing it goes, is it any different in any respect from other R13 clarinets? I presume I will find it easier and to play, but don't know if I ought to stick with the E11 for the time being. It's not a bad instrument, but I don't seem to get quite the sound from it that I want.......but that could be me of course, and not the clarinet!
I'm also wondering if the Buffet R13 is the same weight as wooden clarinets. I'm asking because I developed some pain in my right thumb, hand and arm after a while and have had to give it all a break for a few days now. I've already bought the Ton Kooiman Etude thumb rest to fit onto whatever clarinet I end up with, so I hope that will put an end to any more physical problems.
I am also considering getting a new mouthpiece for whatever clarinet I decide to settle for. I get the impression that the Vandoren B45 is the one to go for, but who knows? At present I'm using the one that came with my E11, which is probably not a very good mouthpiece, but what do I know. If I decide to go for a new mouthpiece, should I actually try several in a shop, to find the one that's just right, or are good quality mouthpieces of the same make and model all more or less the same? I live sort of out in the boondocks a bit, so it's a lot easier for me just to order something, clarinet, mouthpiece or whatever, on the Internet. Thanks for reading this, and thanks very much in advance for any advice anyone might be able to give me.
Best regards,
Pathik
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-01-04 13:48
The R13 is heavier than an E11, and the Greenline R13 is much heavier still.
I think the tip opening on the stock Buffet mouthpiece is about 116mm, so maybe try several other Vandorens - 5RV Lyre, M30, 11.6 or B46 as well as the B45 (which has a tip opening of 119.5mm) - I personally don't like B45s that much, but give the others a go to see which you like best, and don't use the same reed you're currently using on your Buffet mouthpiece - use a new one and try different strengths as well to see which combination suits you.
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Author: DressedToKill
Date: 2006-01-04 13:49
This topic has been discussed to within millimeters of its life here, so I won't belabor it, but I would like to say that Buffet is not the only brand of clarinet on the planet. If, as you say, money isn't really an object, then take your time, spend weeks or months trying as many horns as you can, and wait until you find the one that speaks most directly to you. Buffet, Selmer, Yamaha, LeBlanc, Howarth, Peter Eaton, Rossi, Patricola, and many others all make beautiful top-end instruments that will last you the rest of your life.
The *best* advice I can give you is to take some time and read through the back posts on this board. More information than could ever be digested can be found here, particularly on this very topic.
Good luck with the search, and welcome back to the Land of the Licorice Stick!
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2006-01-04 14:11
It's a very personal decision.
- R13 is a very popular upper-level clarinet, almost a standard for comparison.
- I think the Greenline material is denser than wood - but I believe they are built to last. Your thumb should strengthen up with time. Just make sure to rest it if it hurts. (I've heard RSI is no fun at all.)
- I'd say you should try a few different styles of mouthpiece. If you've played a fair bit in the past, once you're back 'up to speed' you should be able to notice the differences. There are a few internet sites that'll do 'sale or return' on mouthpieces, so you can try them in the comfort of your own home. The choice is extremely personal. I believe the B45 is very popular and often recommended by teachers. From personal experience the 5RV, B45dot and Selmer C85 120 are all good, and represent a variety of characters. The Vandoren and Selmer are supposedly among the more dependable of the 'mass produced' mouthpieces. Having said that, however, fans of the B45 often say they are very variable and would recommend you try a number of the same model!
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-01-04 14:37
Greenline might be built to last in terms of humidity in comparison to grenadilla, but it's less stable under temperature and stress conditions like all composite materials.
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Author: Pathik
Date: 2006-01-05 07:48
Thanks for your replies. What you say about trying out different makes and models makes sense of course, so I've decided to try the R13 Greenline first, not only because the R13 has a good reputation, but also because the Greenline version is virtually impervious to cracking. I live in rural England, and the winters here are often cold, damp and nasty, so not very good for sensitive wooden clarinets. I'm a bit concerned though, that the R13 Greenline is supposedly "much heavier" than the E11, but I guess I'll just have to try it out and see and hear if I like it. The same with new a mouthpiece I suppose, try out one and see if it's any good. I'll see if I can find someone who will accept returns if I don't care for a particular mouthpiece.
Pathik
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-01-05 08:19
I live in semi-rural England (W.Sussex) as well, and all my ancient Selmers have never cracked or conked out due to bad weather, neither have my oboes or any other wooden instrument I have as I keep them indoors.
If anything, the humidity levels and damp weather (or maritime climate) here are good for clarinets, though I still won't advise playing them outside in any weather in any county or country.
[ Portions deleted. Chris P. is an employee of Howarth's and did not disclose such until much later. My apologies for missing this and letting Chris P. misuse this BBoard. Mark Charette ]
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2006-01-05 08:38)
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2006-01-05 08:35
Pathik - the weather where you live may indeed be cold, but unless you plan to keep your clarinet in the garage, why would this matter? If you are comfortable, your clarinet will be.
-----------
If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-01-05 08:43
I don't know any players in the UK that play Greenline Buffets, I know one that borrowed one and it broke in half when it fell, and of a Greenline oboe that cracked between the trills - as normal grenadilla ones can.
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Author: Pathik
Date: 2006-01-05 08:47
No maybe the weather or cold climate doesn't matter. Yes, I do keep my clarinet indoors where it's reasonably warm, but I've read many places that winter in northern climates is not a very good time for breaking in new wooden clarinets, that's why I considered the R13 Greenline. I presume Howarths and Myatts are shops, I think I saw Myatts on the Internet. I live north of Sheffield, South Yorkshire, so I might see if there are any good shops in Sheffield (or Leeds).
Pathik
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-01-05 08:58
I'd suggest buying a clarinet when the weather gets better - leave it until April or May, never in winter as this is when they're most likely to split. Mind you, about 10 years ago I was in Huddersfield around April, and it was bitter up there. So leave it until about May or June.
Ok, I lied - the one new instrument I did have split was a Yamaha 821TP Custom oboe - I bought it in the winter in 1997 and it split during a rehearsal in a freezing rehearsal hall in early January 1998, but Yamaha did send me a new top joint free of charge as it was under warranty.
[ Portions deleted; Chris P. is an employee of Howarth's and did not disclose such until much later. My apologies for missing this and letting Chris P. misuse this BBoard. Mark Charette ]
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2006-01-05 09:04)
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2006-01-05 11:34
Interesting about the Greenline material, people - no, I don't know many people who play them in the UK either. The thing that breaks wooden clarinets in the UK is too much central heating...
As for suppliers in your neck of the woods - Windblowers in Nottingham used to be a very good place, but I haven't been for years and years.
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Author: Mike Clarinet
Date: 2006-01-05 12:26
Take a look at http://www.hansonclarinets.com/. I believe that they are somewhere in Yorkshire. I have no personal experience of them, but other people on this board have made favourable comments. If nothing else, a trip to the factory look like a good day out for clarinetophiles.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-01-05 13:10
Although I've got the heating on, the humidity indoors is 40% - but in the summer it gets to about 80% and that means my pliers, burnishers and other steel tools start rusting.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-01-05 13:52
Steel tools that start rusting? Okay, now I understand what these environmentalist tree-huggers mean by "acid rain".
(says I who sympathise with them, albeit not fundamentalist)
--
Ben
Post Edited (2006-01-05 13:55)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-01-05 14:00
But that's indoors - I don't think there'll be much left if I did leave them in the rain!
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Author: Brenda
Date: 2006-01-05 14:30
Steel tools rusting has nothing to do with acid rain. It's rust, the reaction of the iron content of steel to moisture. My husband is a professional machinist and has to know the content of different kinds of steel, and has to be aware of what kind of steel is appropriate for each job. Depending on the composition of the steel, it will rust or not. Thus we have stainless steel, a composite of -whatever- to avoid the rusting problem.
You should see what happens to leather shoes / books / soft wood / fabrics in a damp environment like Central America! Mold is an awful consequence of not being sure there's sufficient air circulation in closets or kitchen cupboards. The high humidity explains the jungle's being so lush! My son is down there for 6 months, and asked me to send down some new bass guitar strings because his are corroding. So I sent them, along with some advice from the music store technician to try to prevent the problem.
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Author: LarryBocaner ★2017
Date: 2006-01-05 15:17
All of my students using E-11's have "upgraded" them significantly by replacing the original barrel with an R-13 Moennig barrel--usually 66 or 67mm. A local tech (Alexandria, VA, USA) made a barrel for one student at about half the cost of a Buffet barrel, and it is excellent! I feel that the E-11 has evolved to be a near-professional-quality instrument; if you have a good one you might find that a barrel upgrade is all that you need for your purposes!
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Author: Pathik
Date: 2006-01-05 15:22
That's very interesting info about upgrading by just getting a new barrel, I might try that if I can find the one you're suggesting. Thanks for mentioning that.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-01-05 15:34
Get several mouthpieces on approval as well if you can't get to one of the specialists - they'll send you the ones you want to try, but ideally you want to spend a few hours at a specialists trying everything they have (as well as instruments) - you might find the one you've never heard of before is the best one for you.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2006-01-05 16:43
Larry is 100% correct about the E11 being significantly improved with a different Buffet barrel.
Although I certainly didn't need another Buffet clarinet, I recently picked up a fairly new E11 to keep as an every day practice clarinet (I had 2 older E&S but wanted to get something newer to compare)
I was surprised at how good the clarinet was. It is not like my R13's but certainly has the flexibility and accuracy of tuning which is essential to good playing.
The 64.5 barrel which puts the clarinet at A=442 or more, of course, is too short for most players. A 66mm Chadash barrel makes a significant improvement. Even with a stock 66mm Buffet barrel, you will notice a marked change in the tone quality.
I'm not sure if the bore of the stock E11 barrel is different than a stock R13 barrel, but the sound quality certainly does change...GBK
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2006-01-05 16:47
GBK - the bottom RH keys aren't the same stretch as an R-13. (or any of the other wooden buffets such as the E-12, etc)
And the tone isn't nearly as deep either.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2006-01-05 16:52
David...Yes I realized that, along with the fact that the right pinky keys are raised higher than on the R13.
The tone, although not as "deep" (your word - good choice) seems more compact.
It still is a good choice for students or advancing clarinetists ...GBK
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2006-01-05 17:05
I use em all the time for students - almost exclusively for younger players.
Was surprized that a player at your level would give it a second thought for himself though.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2006-01-05 17:10
It's just used as a demonstration/practice clarinet which I put on a peg, and keep assembled all the time.
Occasionally, I'll let a beginning student play a lesson on it, when the parent is considering purchasing a better clarinet for their child...GBK
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Author: Noel
Date: 2006-01-06 16:16
There is a pretty good woodwind shop in Harrogate - not too far from your target area. I think it may be called 'The Music House'. They have a very fairly wide choice of models.
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Author: D
Date: 2006-01-07 18:40
I'd like to second the comment about Hansons. You are really close if you are near sheffield, and they would allow you to go try some out if you talk to them in advance.
I have Hanson clarinets and personally I prefer them to the Buffets I tried. They feel a lot less fragile some how, but it is all personal preference.
Have fun with your search.
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Author: janeuk
Date: 2006-01-08 13:37
Hi Pathik
I'm in the exactly the same situation as you although a little further South in the UK. I have been drooling over the Hanson website and having spent some time living in West Yorkshire the thought of a truly Yorkshire made clarinet is very appealing don't you think? I feel a little trip to Huddersfield coming on! If you click on the link headed Choose Quality at the top of this page you will get to Hansons website
Cheers
Jane
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Author: BobD
Date: 2006-01-08 14:04
"Thus we have stainless steel, a composite of -whatever- to avoid the rusting problem."
Contrary to the above, stainless steel can rust if not cared for properly i.e. if it does not have access to oxygen. The original name was "Rustless Steel" indicating it "rusted less" than other steels. In addition there are many types of stainless steel each with its own set of properties.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Pathik
Date: 2006-01-08 18:29
I'd never heard of Hanson clarinets until now. Yorkshire clarinets? Well, that's rather endearing, and if they're good, maybe. Sounds like a grand day out to go and visit their factory, if nothing else! I think it'll have to wait until April or May anyway, as this is not the best time of year to break in a wooden clarinet. It's possible that I may go for an A clarinet and keep my E11 Bb, maybe with a new mouthpiece and/or barrel, as has been suggested. My clarinet has begun to get brown stains on a couple of the pads, most notably on right hand Eb/Bb, so I might have to have it serviced. But it's only less than four months old! Don't pads last longer than that? I've been scrupulous with drying it out, hardly ever play more than 30-40 minutes without using the swab. Anyway, thanks very much for all your comments and suggestions. I really appreciate it.
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Author: Mike Clarinet
Date: 2006-01-09 08:18
JaneUK - How much further south are you? If you are in striking distance of Maidenhead then Dawkes is the place to go. (Disclaimer - no connection other than as a satisfied customer). They also have a shop in Paignton. See http://www.dawkes.co.uk/.
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2006-01-09 09:57
And what's the lowest note on a Yorkshire clarinet?
"Eeeeee..."
*
No disrespect, Northerner born & bred here! :-D
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Author: janeuk
Date: 2006-01-09 11:36
Thanks Mike
Yes I know of Dawkes,they send me their wonderful accessories catalogue. and I have ordered various bits from them. I'm in Derby, so still a way form Maidenhead but I may make a trip one day.
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