 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Phurster
Date: 2006-01-02 02:05
I have a student who got this model of Clarinet for a bargain price. It is at least 30 years old. The sound is solid but the intonation is very difficult. The most even scale seems to be when the third space C is very flat. Has anyone else had issues or got advice about this model. (She uses a Selmer C85 120 mpc)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-01-02 03:35
I must admit I do have a lot of tuning issues with my Series 9 full Boehms - I've got an 'S' series A from 1964 and an 'A' series Bb from 1978 - the 'S' series is the better instrument. The lower register on both is sharp in comparison to the upper register, the same as the Centered Tone set I have.
Though I do have to consciously make a lot of embouchure adjustments to keep things in tune, I can't (as you will also agree) fault the tone quality.
I'll try mine with a C85 120 to see how it works with that (I use that with my Leblanc LL), I'm currently using a Vandoren M15 on my Selmers.
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Author: hartt
Date: 2006-01-02 05:25
Mark /GBK don't know if this is 'legal' but i had this saved in a file, it is from SHerman Friedland's corner and relates specifically to the tuning issues with the Selmer series 9.............I copied/pasted below dennis
[ Deleted - That posting is already on the woodwind.org site:
http://www.woodwind.org/clarinet/Equipment/Intonation.html - GBK ]
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Author: hartt
Date: 2006-01-02 15:59
GBK......
AHA, THAT'S WHAT I WANTED TO ACCOMPLISH BUT DIDN'T KNOW HOW SO I COPIED/PASTED.
INTERESTING...I RECENTLY CAME ACROSS A SERIES 10 (1971) (I HAD NEVER PLAYED A SELMER) AT A GREAT PRICE. SUPERBLY FREE BLOWING, GOOD SOUND .
YIKES THE THROAT NOTE INTONATION AND LOW E, F, F# WAS LIKE I THOUGHT MY TUNER NEEDED CALIBRATION. SPECIFICALLY, THROAT D,E, F WENT FROM 15 CENT FLAT TO 15 CENT SHARP WITH A 15 CENT SHARP THROAT B FLAT TO A 15 CENT FLAT B NATURAL.
THE ORIGINAL BBL MADE IT SO STUFFY I THOUGHT I WAS PLAYING A ON METAL CLARINET
AFTER THIS, I READ THRU MY FILES AND CAME ACROSS MY ABOVE POST/YOUR LINK
THANKS FOR SIMPLIFYING IT
DENNIS
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Author: Bill
Date: 2006-01-02 17:13
I must admit I have faced these tuning issues becuase I play Selmers, including serial number ranges "L," "N," and a Series 9 ("S"). John Butler and Vytas Krass (as in many things) give good advice about tuning and playing these.
I find use of an older Selmer mouthpiece helps. The HS (and other "old" blank) Selmer mpcs. were built for these instruments. But I belive for a "modern" student hoping to use a more standard (more contemporary, Zinner-style) orchestral-style mouthpiece with the ubiqitous #4 or #4.5 reed, tuning the Selmer would be very difficult. My solution is to use softer reeds, which seem to even out the 12ths (yes, I know this is not logical - the intervals are the intervals - but I can't argue with my own good results!!!!).
I play these old instruments for fun, and I recommend them to everyone for the joy of their chocolate sound and easy blowing characteristics. However, if you ask me whether a conservatory-track student working on floorboard-thick reeds and sitting in a Buffet section can build a career on these old Selmers, I would respond in the negative.
Bill.
Bill Fogle
Ellsworth, Maine
(formerly Washington, DC)
Post Edited (2006-01-02 17:14)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-01-02 17:36
I was surrounded by Buffet players at college but stuck to my guns, and my teacher - a Buffet RC player - couldn't fault the ease in which the altissimo register spoke in comparison to his clarinets (and these were my old 'N' and 'P' series Centered Tone set).
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2006-01-02 19:33
I have owned a Selmer Series 9 and sold it to a friend who plays in a community band. The instrument is always flat and he is a bit tone deaf, so I don't think I did a good deed. He played a Benny Goodman solo in a concert and the CD is embarassing. Even people who aren't musicians ask whether or not he was in tune when they hear it. I think it could be fixed with a better barrel and some tone hole work, not to mention a good EAR!
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2006-01-02 20:59
Hi,
I had a Series 9 and there was only one note that was a tad flat; other than that, a fine instrument. My 9* is my best clarinet for intonation after my LeBlanc L200 which is perfect. My R13 has the usual wide 12th (a Moenig, Butler, as well as a Scott barrel help a lot).
HRL
PS I love Selmer saxes (I have two Mark VIs - alto and tenor - and two Super 80s - soprano and alto).
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Author: Bill
Date: 2006-01-02 21:10
A (water) gun is put to my temple, amd I have to choose between my (beloved) 1967 Buffet R-13 (93,000 series) and my 1949 Selmer "N" series.
The trigger clicks and a drop of water falls out of the gun as I think ....
And think .....
It's the Selmer Paris instrument.
Bill.
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Author: hartt
Date: 2006-01-02 21:47
Hi Brenda !
so right.....bbl aside, the tone hole work? who , today is 'out there' that does that work and at an affordable/reasonable price. I'm not referring to a little sanding in the chimmney or tape/a bit of epoxy.
I recall the article (12 pages) on tuning a clarinet, written by Clark Fobes. ![[whoa]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie10.gif)
When I was at Hartt and had Peter Hadcock for a yr, he had an eefer that actually had tone holes plugged, redrilled and reundercut (other tone holes; sliver keys were plugged period and the keys removed). I don't know who did the work (circa 1967) but obviously he felt the clarinet 'worth it'.
In Russianoff's Method bk, vol 2, he devotes paaaages to 'how to select a clarinet'. The intonation testing process he details is, I'm sure, something that very few people go through. Without going into the other room to look at my book, I believe open G dosen't even enter the equation ![[rotate]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley25.gif) .
All my R13 Bb's have had intonation work done...John Butler, Francois Kloc, Tom Fritz. One A that was selected/owned by a Marcellus student was/is close enough to leave alone. But my 'main' A I know had work done and it was one of Leon's personal clarinets. My set of virtually unplayed Yamahas belonged to my late friend, John Denman and I know he did intonation work.
I share this because as Russianoff wrote, if certain aspects of a clarinet's intonation are 'off'......basically go look for another clarinet.
regards
dennis
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-01-02 22:35
The 'N' series Selmers were the later 'Balanced Tone' and early 'Centered Tone' models - though there was a transitional model which was neither fish nor fowl - and I have one myself - it's a Bb and it's paired with a 'P' series Centered Tone A that I bought together as a set, both have 19 keys 7 rings.
I have a standard 17/6 'N' series Centered Tone as well. Centered Tones had the large hexagonal speaker bush, while the earlier 'N' series and Balanced Tones before them had a large domed speaker bush (with two holes to remove it with, like a large oboe octave bush) with a removable speaker tube in the middle of it.
The Series 9 came in to replace the Centered Tone in the early '60s (though production would have overlapped), the tone hole positions and sizes, and the bore sizes are different - a couple of differences being the Series 9 has the speaker bush (still with a large hexagon on the outside) higher up the top joint and smaller bore than the Centered Tone, and the Series 9* bore was smaller still.
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Author: Shorthand
Date: 2006-01-02 23:07
Ovbiously Fobes does some repair work still, so he is worth contacting along these lines.
A good temporary solution for the student would be to get a clip on tuner pickup for the instrument so that he can see how he's tuning while he plays in an ensemble. It should greatly accelerate the process of learning how to tune it properly (or teach him that perhaps some ease of playing is a good trade for the tone). The same might be a good idea for Brenda's friend.
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Author: Bill
Date: 2006-01-03 00:20
Just a general thing, Brenda - that I love those old Selmers. Just one man's opinion, but I believe the Selmer beast was pretty much the same clarinet from the later "L" numbers until they started the "Series 9*" and "Series 10."
Bill.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-01-03 06:29
I reckon they lost the plot with the introduction of the Series 10 (the Series 9 being the last Selmer of their best era) - just as they did with the Mk.VII saxes.
I was hoping the St. Louis was a large bore instrument recalling the Balanced/Centered Tone instruments when I first heard of them, but it isn't.
For me, my favourite (and what I believe to be the defining) Selmer clarinet is the Centered Tone.
Though the Series 9 has it's faults like ALL clarinets do to a greater or lesser degree, I'll stick with mine. Tuning problems don't remain a problem if dealt with - though some are easier to correct than others. Short of drilling several holes in mine to sharpen the bottom F, E and Eb (with the addition of a RH thumb key and venting mechanism as on full Oehlers) I think I'll live with it. There will never be a perfect clarinet.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2006-01-03 16:21
Owning a well-in-tune [earlier] C T, are we talking about bore sizes and perhaps tapering U J's? The CT is 15.0 mm cyl. and if the 9 is a "Buffet size" 14.6? and the 9* is ? in between the two, and possibly conical/poly cyl?, could this account for those diff's?. Were their shortcomings corrected by the 10's ?? A non-expert re: Selmers, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2006-01-03 20:11
Hank is right about the Selmer 9 and 9* being different. The series 10 and 10Gs are different as well. Much discussion on this board about series 10 and 10G. I really thought the open G sounded horrible on the Selmer 9 that I had. I bought a new/old stock Series 10 about 5 years ago that sounded pretty good, but was a bit "stuffy."
The other note that was awful on the 9 was the middle B. And, let's don't forget the Bb. All the throat tones were terrible.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-01-03 22:11
That's why I tend to use the side Bb key when I can on mine. It's even worse on the Series 9 A.
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Author: jbutler ★2017
Date: 2006-01-03 23:42
Using the older Selmer mouthpieces make these instruments tune much better. Also, I like using the older Brilhart "Tonalin" mouthpieces. There was a change in these older Tonalins and not really sure why, but the "fomer" ones are much better than the "later" ones. I'm sure someone who is into mouthpiece history knows the answer.
As far as the series go, I think the "N" series is a very under rated clarinet. Most all of them I've worked on play very well when used with mouthpieces designed for the instruments. As stated earlier, using a modern mouthpiece with these older Selmer clarinets is ill advised to say the least. I use a Brilhart (bone color) Tonalin with a #4 facing on my Centered Tone and it behaves quite nicely. I use a 3.0 to 3.5 reed with it. I really like the Superial "DC" cut 3.5 reeds with this mouthpiece. The Centered Tone is currently my back up instrument.
jbutler
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2006-01-04 01:23
I agree. I found the Selmer mouthpieces worked better with the Selmer clarinets than any other I tried. In fact, a lot of things on them weren't compatible with other brand things like barrels, etc. I think there are people today who make barrels for Selmers, but a few years ago it was difficult.
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Author: ghuba
Date: 2006-01-04 13:45
Just a conjecture, but the "bad" throat tones on these series of Selmer clarinets (L, M, N, BT, CT) all with large bores were probably one of the reasons that Selmer tried two different throat Bb correction systems -- the Omega in the late 40s and 50s and the Mazzeo System in the late 50s through 70s -- to fix the problem [and Leblanc used the competing Stubbins system with its extra vent for the same problem with its own big bore clarinets]. The "original" Omega (not the student models marketed under this name today) has an extra vent key fit to a Centered Tone clarinet. The early French Selmer Mazzeos were derived from Centered Tone clarinets with the system later applied to Series 9 star and 10 instruments, and is well-known by readers of this board that the Mazzeo system uses the side Bb key accessed through Mazzeo fingerings. It is also likely that because of technical problems with the Omega correction and professional resistance to relearning fingerings for the Mazzeo System, Selmer then went to smaller bore clarinets, attempting to replicate the Buffet bores in the 1980s and 1990s, ending up in the extreme with the current Recital model which has a "very good" throat Bb as compared to the early big bore Selmers. [Of course, in the extreme of the Recital model, Selmer has then had to introduce an extra vent key for low F -- echoes of Mazzeo and Stubbins at the other end of the horn.]
Related to this, I also have evidence that Selmer may have experimented with the Stubbins-Kaspar correction system on big bore clarinets because I have recently been able to purchase a Selmer L-series A clarinet that has a Stubbins-Kaspar key which appears to be part of the original keywork and not an aftermarket addition. This is the first indication I have ever seen [as it does not seem to be documented in the archives of this Board] that Selmer may have tried the Stubbins system as well as the Omega and Mazzeo methods for solving the throat Bb "problem" on its big bore clarinets of the 30s through the 60s.
George
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-01-04 13:59
I might add an improved throat Bb device to this plastic Yamaha YCL-24 clarinet I'm carrying out various keywork experiments on - one which seperates the Bb from the speaker vent (like on reform Boehms) having a duplicate tonehole in the same line as the side Bb 'trill', but this only opens when the A key is pressed, and not connected to the thumb ring.
My LH forked Eb/Bb which I fitted recently works a treat - now I'm going to have the extra keywork nickel plated to match the rest. Shame the low F and E are in tune on the Yamaha as I'd like to try out an automatic low F and E correction device as well.
If it works as I imagine it will, I'll probably add it to my Series 9s.
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