 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2005-12-30 17:59
I'm preparing to get together with some musicians from out of state to do some piano/clarinet duos next year. I want to play real duos --not to saddle the pianist with "reductions," I want him to be a full participant.
I'm looking at the Schirmer Vol 1747 "Schrimer's Library of Musical Classics," and want to play Rober Schuman's, Op 73, "Fantasy-Pieces for Clarinet and Piano."
The three pieces are duplicated for Both A and Bb soprano clarinets. I have a couple of questions. First, here's the layout of the three pieces.
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EDIT:
Sorry, my attempt to "tab" the following table by inserting spaces failed. Hopefully, you can see how the entries should line-up under the column headings. Thanks
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Key Signatures
Piece Clar in A Clar in Bb Tempo Marking
#1 Eb D 1/4 Note = 80/min
#2 C & Ab B & G 1/4 Note = 128
#3 C & Eb B & D 1/4 Note = 160
1.) Which clarinets do real clarinetists choose to use for the three movements? My preference would be to use the Bb for the first two movements and switch to the A for the third.
2.) What tempos are really appropriate for these pieces? They are lyrical when played at slower tempi than marked in this edition. I have a CD, "Clarinet Fantasies" where the performers play the second and third movements much slower than marked in this edition.
Thanks, in advance, for your comments.
PS: No real A-clarinet; maybe I'll ask my pianist to play #3 down a 1/2 step.
;{P
Bob Phillips
Post Edited (2005-12-30 18:01)
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Author: Douglas
Date: 2005-12-30 19:20
First a few simple observations: The concert pitch tonic for all three pieces is A, which puts the A clarinet into a comfortable place. Sometimes, as in the opening piece, the A tonic is a minor mode, therefore the 3 flats (c minor for the A clarinet). You need to understand that a key signature may mean a major key ( such as 3 flats indicating Eb major) or a minor key (such as 3 flats meaning c minor, the printed, transposed key for the A clarinet in piece #1.) If you play the first two pieces in the A clarinet version and then have the pianist transpose #3 so you can simply play the A clarinet part on Bb, you have destroyed Schumann's tonal plan for the pieces to have the same tonic for all three pieces. (By the way the other key signatures you cite are internal modulations, and do not change the fact that all three pieces have opening and ending tonics of concert A.) If you do decide to play the A clarinet part for #3 on the Bb clarinet , your pianist will have to transpose up a 1/2 step, not down.
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Author: Francesca
Date: 2005-12-30 19:52
All three movements are generally performed on the same clarinet, perferrably A. The reason the Bb edition exists is so that more people will purchase and perform the piece. Whichever clarinet you decide to use, you'll have to work with less-than-ideal keys. Think of it as a practical application of all those scales you've been practicing.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2005-12-30 21:35
The pieces were written for A clarinet. However, there are two treacherous spots in #1 - the slur from clarion F to altissimo C# and then down to C, and the octave slur from clarion Eb to altissimo Eb. In both cases, the high note is problematic, particularly on the A clarinet, and the first one requires two consecutive register changes, making a smooth phrase difficult.
Therefore, #1 is often played on the Bb clarinet. The first spot then becomes an easy slur up to clarion high C, and the second goes to the standard fingering for altissimo D.
The transposition creates its own problems, particularly the resolution of the first phrase. On the Bb clarinet, it's middle B to A#, which involves a register change and two bad notes. C to B on the A clarinet is much better. It's not easy to be as smooth on the Bb.
I think Kell may have transposed all three pieces on his Decca recording, but his scale is so even that it's impossible to be sure.
For me, all three pieces work best on the A clarinet.
And don't forget the three Romances for oboe, which are gorgeous on the A clarinet.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-12-31 00:48
I'm fortunate to have a set of full Boehms, and I use the Bb in the 1st movement so the B-A# is a doddle (without the register change), but I do the 2nd and 3rd movements using my A.
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Author: Alexis
Date: 2005-12-31 04:28
The tempos, as far as I know, are Clara Schumann's markings. They were put in after Schumann's death.
I wouldn't be too slow with the last two pieces. They are a real test endurance-wise and taking the 3rd at a slowish tempo will be tough for breathing (and in my opinion, drain energy from the performance). There are lots of recordings, but I would not take anyone's interpretation as gospel. It would be good to try them at a number of tempos with your pianist.
You may have been joking (and I apologise for being humourless!), but the piano part is difficult enough for number 3 without transposing. Unless you have an actual part for your pianist, you will have to play the Bb version (which is tricky but certainly not impossible)
I believe what Douglas is saying is that you cannot transpose the final piece down a semitone because it will affect the longterm tonal and dramatic shift from A minor to A major. The 2nd piece ends with a foreshadowing of the melodic motive of the final piece and if you were to transpose down the final piece it would spoil a truly beautiful moment (in my opinion).
As a side note, there was an edition released of the pieces without the final two arpeggiated chords in the 2nd piece and an 'attacca' marking. I believe this is much more effective.
I don't think it matters which instruments you use, providing you maintain the tonal structure of the piece. I play all three pieces on A, but only because that is what I have always done...
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Author: Douglas
Date: 2005-12-31 05:27
Alexis, what I was saying was that if Bob has his pianist transpose #3 down a half step (that's what he said) and plays the A clarinet as written on Bb clarinet, then the pianist will be playing in Ab major while the clarinet would be playing in Bb major. That wouldn't be Robert Schumann....more like William Schuman. The tempo markings are Robert Schumann's. Clara made some drastic changes to the music before the first publication. Look at the "Soireestuecke fuer Clarinette und Clavier" edition to see Schumann's original version.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-12-31 11:25
The tempo of mvt 1 I have heard with quite a variety of tempi.
Harold Wright takes it painfully slowly in his recording with Peter Serkin Boston Records BR1005CD at 3:50 for the movement. It's so slow that it is almost boring - but beautiful.
Contrast that with Charles Stier who at 2:30 must have been late for a train, and David Shifrin who at 3:25 had a really nice tempo for it.
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Author: crnichols
Date: 2005-12-31 11:29
That edition that Douglas refers to is very interesting. I had the opportunity to attend the masterclass that Alan Hacker, the editor of that edition, gave over here in Bamberg, Germany. He had a few of the students play from that edition, and the piano part in particular is very different. I think it's definitely necessary to explore this edition. It might sound a little strange to play some of it because of how we are used to hearing it, but it is really the definitive work of Schumann. You of course need to have the other edition for contests though. I know someone that was ejected from a contest for using Hackers edition.
Christopher Nichols
1st Infantry Division Band
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2005-12-31 17:44
crnichols wrote:
>> That edition that Douglas refers to is very interesting. I had the opportunity to attend the masterclass that Alan Hacker, the editor of that edition, gave over here in Bamberg, Germany. He had a few of the students play from that edition, and the piano part in particular is very different. I think it's definitely necessary to explore this edition. It might sound a little strange to play some of it because of how we are used to hearing it, but it is really the definitive work of Schumann.>>
Well, it represents his first thoughts, certainly. It had another title, Soireestuecke, too, so I think it's best to regard it as a draft for the Fantasiestuecke that might have been destroyed, but has survived by chance, and is worth hearing for interest's sake.
If you compare, say, the different codas to the first movement, it's hard not to feel that Schumann's revision is superior.
There is however an idea that I do feel Schumann might have left unaltered -- which is that the second movement last two chords of the Fantasiestuecke are missing in the earlier Soireestuecke. Without them, there is a connection between the second and third movements that is wacky, but wonderful. (I have been known to persuade the pianist to leave them out:-)
Tony
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-12-31 18:40
Is there really any problem (apart from the attacca or the ligature and reed coming off when changing) playing movement 1 on Bb (as I said, I have the low Eb key so that makes the B-A# in the phrases nice and smooth without going below the break), and changing to A for 2 and 3?
Coming from a purely practical point of view, aren't we as clarinettists meant to find the easy way round by using the instrument that makes performance easier for us, or face the wrath of stick-in-the-mud people that say '...they played the 1st movement on the wrong instrument'?
I'm in favour of going down the easy route and which instrument gives the best results form a technical and musical point of view for the player.
I got some crap from a string player before I played at a concert as I 'wasn't playing the pieces on the right instrument' - even though she sat there stone-faced throughout, at the end she admitted that she liked what I did and that it worked, and I'm glad to say her preconceived ideas were unjust and her face cracked when she smiled.
I must admit I think the Fantasiestueke is not as technically difficult as I first thought, but musically it does need a lot of consideration, and surprised it's on the syllabus for Grade 8 ARBSM (I thought this would be more suited to advanced certificate) - but then again, the Weber and Mozart concertos are as well.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2005-12-31 19:01)
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2005-12-31 19:04
Ken,
I played through the awkward places in #1 that you pointed out without realizing that they would be the subject of concern to a better player.
I've been having trouble with notes sticking out and having to work hard to prevent that uneveness. An overhaul of my '61 Buffet pretty much got rid of the loud(er) top-of-staff G, but I've been having a lot of trouble (e.g., Rose 32 #11, von Weber Variations) moving "politely" from clarion to altissimo. I got a great tip at this week's lesson: Support the clarion firmly before crossing the break. That really helped me
Coming down from long B, to Bb, I add the top A-key to the B (sorta makes up for NOT having a Backun bell) and drop to the pinch Bb. That doesn't risk the chance of sticking extra notes in as I grab for the side Bb.
Chris P,
I've been curious to know if folks avoided the pinch Bb on full Boehm clarinets.
All
I set a metronome for 128 in the second today and then 160 for the third. Both felt rushed. I'll have to work up to faster tempos in those movements.
I feel so ignorant! Not only can I not play the horn very well, I don't recognize all of the inderlying elements of the music.
But I do cry when it all comes together.
Thanks, all.
Bob Phillips
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-12-31 19:09
I cry in pain after playing along to the Musicpartner accompaninent CD - it's pitched at 443Hz all the way!
Maybe I ought to get a CD player with pitch control to bring it down to a more realistic 440Hz.
Yeah, the full Boehms do make a lot of things easier, except altissimo Bb using the full fingering (xxxG#|xxxF/C) unless the adjustment o the artic. G# is disengaged.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-12-31 19:37
Chris - I would volunteer to repitch that for you at 440 if you want. Write me from my website (no charge for it). You would have to have a fast internet connection though.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-12-31 21:57
That's what I haven't got - a fast internet connection!
But I'm not planning in playing this in public for a while anyway (even though it will be at 440Hz), but I suppose practicing up to 443Hz is a good workout for the embouchure.
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2006-01-01 16:31
Yeah, Chris P
Darn; my teacher wanted me to use some altissimo fingerings with the G# open and right hand rings depressed. That's the first time my Buffet R-1/16 (Full Boehm less the long Eb/Bb) has let me down.
David B:
What is involved in repitching a CD? Can they be re-timed, too?
Thanks again
Bob Phillips
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-01-01 16:37
It's stupid really - I've been playing clarinets with artic. G# for long enough, but never bothered finding out an alternative altissimo Bb!
And keep forgetting to note down from the fingering charts the alternatives that don't involve the G# and RH rings together.
I'll do that now.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-01-01 17:03
"What is involved in repitching a CD? Can they be re-timed, too?"
Repitching is not a problem, and with such a small difference as 443 to 440 I guess it is unoticable. Retiming is also possible but obviously if you change it too much it will sound strange and unatural.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2006-01-01 17:21
Retiming is also possible but obviously if you change it too much it will sound strange not natural.
------------------------------------------------
Yup, music can sound really off if the timing is changed too much as the pauses often wouldn't change very much, but do when it is "retimed".
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Author: Alexis
Date: 2006-01-02 09:36
I think with the metronome those tempos will seem too fast.
The metronome doesn't give you any space to move. It doesn't have much of a soul...
Try thinking in 2, especially for the second piece. I thought those tempo markings were too fast for a long time, but I think there is something fantastically impulsive in the pieces at the faster tempos.
A good example of this impulsiveness (which Schumann certainly valued in his piano works of the 1830's) is the opening phrase of the second piece. The clarinet plays the same melodic material as the piano for two bars and then abruptly changes to the minor mode (unusually c# minor in a general tonality of A major). The slower this goes, the more sentimental it sounds and the less interesting and impulsive it becomes. Romantic doesn't in any way translate to 'sentimental' in my opinion.
Also, on a somewhat less metaphysical level, the melody doesn't come out that well in the piano part (it is interspersed in a triplet figuration) if it is taken at too slow a tempo.
And I'm glad that Tony Pay also leaves out those chords...
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2006-01-02 13:34
Alexis wrote:
>> A good example of this impulsiveness (which Schumann certainly valued in his piano works of the 1830's) is the opening phrase of the second piece. The clarinet plays the same melodic material as the piano for two bars and then abruptly changes to the minor mode (unusually c# minor in a general tonality of A major). The slower this goes, the more sentimental it sounds and the less interesting and impulsive it becomes. Romantic doesn't in any way translate to 'sentimental' in my opinion.>>
I have no quarrel with this; but I do think of the Schumann pieces slightly differently myself.
The difference between the first and second pieces for me is that the first is both personal and introspective, so that the emotions cannot change very quickly -- I cannot in a moment go between sadness and elation, for example.
The second, however, is narrative: I can be describing the happy princess in the first two-and-a-half bars, and her sad sister in the second two-and-a-half bars, without contradiction -- provided I am telling a story.
(In my version I'm reading this bedtime story to a child; there's a rather game-like middle section, with a tiny sad bit in it; then we get back to the main story, and as we reach the Coda, I see the child is asleep, and so go ever so quietly out of the room...)
....and into a wild party! Which is both personal and extrovert, and contains bits of both first and second movements, of course.
I especially like this picture when we get to the Coda of the last movement, when just for a few bars, we get to look at what's going on around us as though we're outside it -- before being dragged back into the dance at the subito piu mosso!
>> And I'm glad that Tony Pay also leaves out those chords...>>
Well, it depends on the pianist; sometimes we do, sometimes we don't. (And the chords are quite a nice representation of shutting the bedroom door behind us, after all:-)
Tony
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2006-01-02 14:43
------------------------------
I cannot in a moment go between sadness and
elation, for example.
--------------------------------
Tony, you mean that you aren't crazy like Mahler was? 
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2006-01-02 15:51
Tony,
Do you creep out of that bedroom S-L-O-W-L-Y (as you become more tranquillo), or do you hold the tempo and just diminuendo?
What a great way to guide me in the performance of this piece. Thanks
Bob Phillips
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2006-01-02 20:17
Bob Phillips wrote:
>> Do you creep out of that bedroom S-L-O-W-L-Y (as you become more tranquillo), or do you hold the tempo and just diminuendo?>>
I should really leave that sort of decision to you.
But I do think that the G-D-E motif shouldn't be too slow, even if there is a gradual slowing down. I find it important that the D is heard as a part of the G -- so that it's a decorated G-E, or V-III in the key, surely one of the most poignant of intervals.
Therefore I play the D very shadowy, and quite soon after the G, even if the general tempo is slower.
Tony
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2006-01-03 01:11
Yes, Dr. Pay, I often think of you as a big tease!
But that doesn't work for very long, because I always have to sit and reflect on your insights for a while --perhaps coming back to them for a couple of re-views.
Anyway, I'm "down" for a narrative in the Schuman.
Thanks
Bob Phillips
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