 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2005-12-31 19:20
Well, I'm not actually drowning, but I'm swimming in saliva.
Since having my Buffet re-incarnated, its been picking up spit in the upper joint tone holes --like it seldom did in its earlier 40+ years of existence.
Since adopting a long, open lay (Vandoren M30) mouthpiece (and having to take a lot of mpc), its gotten worse. Spit accumulates in the upper A and G key tone holes and in the side trill keys very quickly. I'm not assured that I can play a piece through without having holes plug up.
There is so much water that I have to swab, blow out the tone holes and blot up the rest of the moisture with a cigarette paper --and repeat every few minutes.
In the old days, flooded tone holes were cured by re-oiling the bore. I thought surface tension kept the water out.
I solicit your thoughts on how to repair my lost water dykes.
Thanks in advance for your help
Bob Phillips
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-12-31 19:36
You could use acetone to clean the tone hole area and then apply almond oil to form a barrier around the tone hole.
That's what Mark Jacobi did back when I got my set of Clarinets in 1989.
The second that you blow into the Clarinet it gets condensation from about the thumb hole up to the mouthpiece.
Only takes about 5 seconds for that film to appear - I know as I have a clear Clarinet and it's kinda cool to show students that process.
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2005-12-31 22:06
Excellent topic. The thread Mark posted needs to be printed up and kept on hand in every clarinet player's file cabinet. We all have that problem from time to time.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-12-31 22:21
Bob, it's not all saliva, only a small amount of moisture in any instrument is saliva - it's mostly condensation.
I have noticed now that I'm playing clarinet a lot more nowadays, the old problems with condensation in the speaker tube are something I still don't miss, and do try to use the side Bb 'trill' key for throat Bb whenever I can, but the side F# is still one that gets flooded, but I just deal with it as best as I can - but as I've generally used clarinets with the articulated C#/G# tonehole on the top, I've never suffered there!
Still don't like playing alto and tenor saxes too much for the simple fact water pours out of the LH side keys.
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Author: ClariBone
Date: 2005-12-31 22:58
I didn't have time to read the other posts, so if I'm repeating someone, sorry!! I haven't done it, but I've heard you could apply a trail of bore oil to guide the condensation down a certain path through the clarinet, keeping it away from the tone holes and pads. Anyone ever done this?? Suprisingly, I almost never have to clear water out of my tone holes.
Clayton
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2005-12-31 23:14
ClariBone wrote:
> I didn't have time to read the other posts,
It only takes a few seconds to read the other posts, and can keep one from looking foolish.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2005-12-31 23:35
ClariBone wrote:
> I didn't have time to read the other posts
Also, stating something that has been previously written adds unnecessary repetition to the archives, making a search more time consuming.
PLEASE read the ENTIRE thread before posting to avoid repeating what has been stated by someone else...GBK
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2006-11-26 04:57
This problem always seems to rear its head when the weather turns colder. An obvious solution is to play in a warmer environment so that there is less condensation inside the instrument.
I imagine applying a water repellent, such as oil, silicone, Scotchguard, etc, to a specific area, such as in a tone hole chimney or on the bore nearby, would reduce the likelihood of water RUNNING there, but I doubt that it changes how much water CONDENSES there.
A water repellent on the surface may keep a stream of water away, but may also encourage CONDENSED moisture to BEAD on the surface, with beads encouraged to collect at pad/tone hole junctions by capillary action.
An alternative treatment is to use a surfactant, such as even detergent. Two possibilities:
1. Put it where the water is a problem.. This will make the moisture spread as a thin film over the entire surface, rather than beading.
2. Lay a trail down the bore where you WANT the water to run. Water will prefer to move along such as surface than to migrate to a water-repellent surface where it must form beads. This could be done in conjunction with a water repellent at the tone hole chimneys and their surrounds.
I met these seemingly contradictory treatments - surfactant and repellent - in the world of recorder players and oboe players, where moisture is an even greater problem.
I do not have enough personal experience to know which method or combination works best. I have tried several with customers, and asked them to report back, but they did not.
But I certainly would not expect laying a TRAIL of OIL down the bore, as somebody suggested, to direct the water down such a trail.
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Author: C2thew
Date: 2006-11-26 05:13
Try changing the source: i.e. your respiratory system. There could be numerous factors that could cause an extreme amount of condensation. One thing that i've noticed that helps me is that i run every so often and do small hikes. The result (this is purely speculative) that i found was that i wasn't struggling with the air and getting as much water in the clarinet then on certain weeks where i didn't run around at all.
Just throwing another possible solution. change up your breathing practices. Will it work? It might possibly solve the case, or it might contribute to even more moisture inside the clarinet.
give it a shot! it can' t hurt.
Our inventions are wont to be pretty toys, which distract our attention from serious things. they are but improved means to an unimproved end, an end which was already but too easy to arrive as railroads lead to Boston to New York
-Walden; Henry Thoreau
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Author: donald
Date: 2006-11-26 05:25
kia ora
two "theories" worth thinking over, i don't claim that either are the cause or solution, merely that they are worth knowing about! (in addition to the very good advice given above)
Water problems can be (note, i say CAN BE not ARE) caused by pads that are not seating properly, especially if there is sideplay in a key so that it may seat well until it is used- and then doesn't return perfectly to it's correct place. Here i'm not talking about leaks that are big enough to be easily noticeable but leaks that are very minor and easily overlooked. As i understand it, the leaks causes an area of lower pressure in the bore that attracts the moisture... i'm sure there is a more scientific explanation.
(to illustrate this idea of "micro leaks", i had an A clarinet that was examined by two good technicians who could not find any leaks, yet when it was plugged into the tester machine thingy by Morrie Backun it registered less than 80% seal. After this instrument was completely repaded and the toneholes refinished it played very differently, yet had previously had no "glaringly obvious" leaks)
another thing not mentioned previously is that excess water can be encouraged (note i did not say CAUSED) by unbalanced reeds. When Dave Etheridge first explained this concept to me i thought it was very dubious, however over the years i have come to believe it's true. When the reed is vibrating unevenly, the water on the back side of reed tends to accumulate unevenly on the reed- off to one side or the other. The water then tends to dribble down one side or the other of the bore, rather than being concentrated in the centre.
You write that with your new mouthpiece you have to put more mouthpiece in your mouth- perhaps you are also bending your head down/forward more than previously? This could explain more SALIVA (as opposed to condensation) in the bore.
just passing on a few ideas i've been exposed to over the years, i hope it was useful.
donald
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2006-11-26 17:29
It was surprise to find my 11-month old thread resurected. Thanks for the new thoughts.
I'm playing on a new horn, and it gets waterlogged in different ways --different bore, different tone hole locations, ...
Meanwhile, I've had two symphony professionals advise me to swab frequently; and i've taken that advice. I have a discreet, dark colored silk swab. I find that it works best (longer play between bubbles) if I swab from the top down --pushing the water along its natural course --rather than backing it up to rund down the bore again.
Bob Phillips
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2006-11-27 05:15
I have had a chronic problem with this until recently. Mine was the RH Eb/Bb.
I had tried just about all the ideas that have been hitherto mentioned. No
change- even short term.
Then, I took a good long look into the bore. What I found was crevices in the grain that were ever so slightly bigger than normal. Moreover they were pointing straight to the hole in question.
Using super thin super glue (similar to 'Hot Stuff') I placed less than a drop into the space with a thin wire. That little bit filled the crevices. I haven't had any problems since, but it's only been 3 weeks.
This might be your problem. That would explain why it never happened before- the wood was younger and the spaces hadn't opened yet.
Wax might be another less dangerous and non-permanent idea, too.
Hope this helps.
-S
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Author: Tim P
Date: 2006-11-28 13:12
for what it is worth, here is my story. I had the same problem after having Walter overhaul my instrutment. I was way to lazy to trace the path with a wire etc. So I would dry my instrument with a swap as unsuall and then put it away. but when I took it out to play I would use Doc's oil and his "mop" to oil the clarinet. the mop was very very slightly oiled. So little that you really could not see it. if you left the mop on a piece of paper it would spot it and if you looked real hard you could see that it left a slight film on the clarinet. if you touch it it is very hard to detect the oil. To achieve the slightly oiled mop I store the mop in one of Doc's used oil containers, it fits nice and snug. I put 3-4 drops of oil in the container and let the mop soak it up for several days which spreads it out pretty evenely. The container is air tight so it takes very little oil to maintain this slighlty oiled state. . after about a 2 weeks of dailey swapping before practice the problem went away. At first I did not make all the way through practice but the lasped time before water problems increased then went away. I think that I now have good film on (or in) the bore wood and gravity takes care of the rest. I still 'barely oil" it once every 2-3 weeks.
i have had only one reoccurrance and i mopped once and it was gone.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2006-12-18 10:38
It has been about a month since I put the super glue in those fissures. The result- NO CHANGE! The problem has come back to it's original state.
As far as oils go, I have heard to use olive oil. Any comments?? As for Almond Oil that I see a few talking about, where do you get this?? Art stores??
I once got a barrel from Jimmy Yan in NYC that was lined with a very sticky "Tung Oil". He said it is used for boats to seal the water out.
-S
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Author: Brenda ★2017
Date: 2006-12-18 16:02
I had the same very annoying problem. Besides the above suggestions that could help in some circumstances, what helped me was to have the offending pads replaced with cork. A reputable repair tech should be able to help out here.
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Author: GoatTnder
Date: 2006-12-18 17:37
The best solution I've heard is to just pay attention to how you hold the instrument. Keep it mostly upright, but leaning a little backward and a little to the left. And gravity takes care of the rest. It's almost flawless for me, because there's no way the water can flow up the sides of the clarinet to get to the pads. But, you do have to be fairly observant of how you're holding it.
You can also help it out a bit by making a trail of saliva (or water, i guess) in the top joint before you start playing. Just have it run down the back of the clarinet (off to the side of the register key) and the water will follow that line.
Andres Cabrera
South Bay Wind Ensemble
www.SouthBayWinds.com
sbwe@sbmusic.org
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Author: Brenda ★2017
Date: 2006-12-18 21:03
That sounds logical, except that my biggest problem with bubbling in the past was with the throat A. Gravity didn't have anything to do with that, but the moisture in the air was attracted to something in the previous pad. Got that changed and never again had the problem. Good advice about the oiling, etc, but don't discount the possibility of the pads.
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2006-12-19 01:25
Just like Donald said the water problem CAN BE caused by pads that are not seating properly. I would say "ARE CAUSED". The perfect seat is when a pad is parallel to the tone hole. But with time pads develop deeper seats and that makes a seat a bit out of alignment or out of parallel position. This creates "micro leaks" that are not easily detectible. You can do a blow test and find no leaks, but if you tried to do a blow one more time after like 20-40 minutes of playing you would visually notice some bubbles coming out from the tone holes that are actually collecting the moister. These are "micro leaks" that attracts the moister there and it has nothing to do with gravity etc. It might happen with newly overhauled clarinets especially those that are repadded with Valentino pads.
Not many technicians let an overhauled clarinet sit in the shop for a day or two and then take care of the "micro leaks". So there's no surprise that many freshly overhauled clarinets have this problem.
The register tube that is too long might create a 'gurgling' overtone on the long B and no swabbing will fix that because there is no moister there.
Vytas Krass
Clarinet Repair
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
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