 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2005-12-24 10:53
If I remember corret a lot of people here also play saxophone so I have some questions.
I've been toying with a Jupiter alto saxophone I borrowed from a friend for the last week, and I'm considering buying both alto and tenor saxophones. What the saxes must have are the more modern deisgn G# left pinky key, low priced, and be available in my country. I'm leaning towards used instruments since I'll probably get more for my money this way.
From new low priced ones we have Yamaha, Jupiter, and maybe also Amati. I don't have much experience with saxophones, but I didn't like the sound of any of the Selmer series II and III I've tried. They sound very bright and shiny (that's the best way I can describe it). I like the sound of the Jupiter I borrowed from my friend which is mellower, but harder to control.
I'm only going to play the saxophone in free improvised music, and never classical or mainstream jazz, if that makes any difference (for example main inspirition on tenor saxophone for me is Evan Parker).
My question is what used brands are worth considering (that will have the modern G# design), and what new "student" models are worth trying too.
I would also like to know what low priced mouthpieces should I consider, both for alto and tenor. Right now I have a Vandoren V5 A35 mouthpiece I borrowed from a friend and it is ok but not great. I've tried a Selmer S90 which was excellent.
Thanks very much.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-12-24 13:15
All the Jupiter saxes should have the modern (or Balanced Action-style) bell keys, Buffet Evette saxes are also made by Jupiter, but the more recent Jupiter saxes are much better - try to go for a 700 series rather than the 500 series though, they're much better made and have a better bore design, probably more like Yamaha.
If you are looking for a used Jupiter, look for one made in the last 5 years as they're made with better quality metals than the earlier ones.
A Selmer S90 (180) mouthpiece is a good choice, or a S80 C**.
If you do end up buying new, then you can't go wrong with both Yamaha or Jupiter (700 series), but I won't recommend Amati saxes - the are heavy in comparison to all the others, don't have as good tone quality and aren't as well set up.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2005-12-24 15:57)
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2005-12-24 13:22
Keep in mind that smaller saxophones are more durable - larger ones take small dents badly, and can have alignment problems if the body is twisted.
That said, the Antigua Winds alto saxophones are VERY good for the money.
If you can find one second hand, they're often unused - the child playing it frequently puts it down for another interest.
There are LOADS of tenor players, already.
The Alto is in the same key as the Baritone saxophone, so it makes a likely pairing with the lower voiced instrument, if your budget allows.
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Author: Gandalfe
Date: 2005-12-24 16:54
The new Antigua Winds, in the last three years, have replaced the soft, easy to bend or mash keys of older Anigua Winds instruments. Don't buy the older instruments. You will not be happy.
I have an Antigua Winds 590BC soprano which is fun, but I struggle with the intonation above A2 (above the staff). I had a Yanagisawa s901 curvy and the intonation was a little better. If money were no object, I'd get a Yanagisawa SS99xx series soprano.
If you are going to double on sax and want to buy new, I'd recommend the Kessler Custom. Dave Kessler (search on Kessler Music online) currently enjoys a good rep at SOTW. For example, many new and aspiring players have purchased a Kessler Custom alto with a personalized New York Custom mouthpiece for Round $700.
A buddy of mine who played clarinet in Jr. High started up again two years ago. The first year he rented an older Antigua Winds bari sax for $75 a month! It was terrible. The D2 was the worst intonation wise. So he bought a Kessler Custom bari (the case even as wheels) and he is so much happier.
My wife, a clarinet player has a Kessler Custom alto sax. After less than a year of lessons, she plays with the jazz ensemble I'm in. She sez the concert band music for saxes is not challenging enough though. ;o)
Jim and Suzy
Pacifica Big Band
Seattle, Washington
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2005-12-24 17:53
Chris P, Thank you for your help. Looks like Amatis are the only ones I can afford new, so I'll probably buy used. The store in my city sells both Jupiter and Yamaha so I'll try those soon.
I just found two more stores, they are pretty far (over 3 hours away) but I'll go there and try more saxophones. One store sells Amati and Yanagisawa, and the other sells Keilwerth and a bunch of saxes I've never heard about like Trevor James (London), Winston (Boston), Jean Micheal. Has anyone heard about these?
(That's how it works here, each brand is only sold in one store)
Synonymous Botch, thank you for your suggestions. I'm going to start with alto, and maybe get a tenor later but bariton is not for me.
Gandalfe thank you for your advice. As I wrote I will only buy in my country so Antigua is not possible. Any brand (unless it's a used sax I happen to find) that is not from the ones I listed above is not availabe here.
I'll try the stores later this week and report back with what I find. One of the stores usually have a very big used selection.
Thanks again.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-12-24 18:12
Trevor James and Winston (and I assume Jean Michael) and the student Keilwerth saxes are all Taiwanese built, as are Jupiter, Antigua and the majority of student saxes. But don't go for older Taiwanese saxes due to the soft metal the keywork is made from.
I have a Yamaha 875 Custom alto and tenor and these are very sturdy, but expensive, as well as an old 62 series soprano and a fantastic 15 year old 62 series baritone I bought from new.
If you can find a used Yamaha 62 (or even 32 or 25) alto at a good price then I would settle with that - they go on forever, I've had 2 used 62 altos and a used 62 tenor (before getting the Custom 875 series), and these are easy to work on if anything isn't right.
Yanagisawa are probably the market leaders in sopranos as they have an unrivalled and extensive lineup to cater for all tastes, and the bronze bodied altos and tenors are very popular in the UK.
I know Amati have undergone a lot of changes since the '90s, but their saxes aren't all that good compared to the competition, and the older ones which had several names (Corton, Lafleur, B&H 400, Musica, King Lemaire) have very old-fashioned and uncomfortable keywork, poor bore design and are best avoided.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2005-12-25 07:55)
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Author: pzaur
Date: 2005-12-24 21:00
If you don't have any reservations about mail order instruments, I would look into the Kessler instruments out of Las Vegas. They seem to have a very good reputation on the Sax On The Web forum (<www.saxontheweb.com>) and are very reasonably priced.
I emailed Kessler awhile ago asking about where the instruments were produced and he said the instruments were manufactured somewhere in Germany. Wouldn't say where.
<www.kesslermusic.com>
I personally have not had any dealings with this company.
-pat
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2005-12-24 23:14
I had some generation of Antiqua Tenor, and it was so awful I gave up on it. Maybe its a good thing that you don't have to sort through that brand in your country.
Bob Phillips
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Author: Gandalfe
Date: 2005-12-25 03:02
Bob, if your Antigua Winds was more than three to five years old, my condolences. I think that play testing many Asian instruments today, however, will be quite a surprise for those thinking of the Asian instruments that were so terrible when we were in school.
Jim and Suzy
Pacifica Big Band
Seattle, Washington
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2005-12-25 05:03
Thanks again for the help and advice.
I will not mail order, since the cost of shipping and tax is so high it is not worth it (and then if something is wrong I have to ship it back - even more money).
Chris P wrote: "But don't go for plder Taiwanese saxes due to the soft metal the keywork is made from."
What do you mean by "plder"? I think you didn't mean all Taiwanese saxes, since the Jupiter I borrowed is made in Taiwan and it pretty good (liked it better than a few Selmer SA II and III I've tried for example).
Thanks again.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-12-25 07:53
Oops, I meant 'older' - I hit the 'P' key by mistake!
The older Jupiters from the 80s were pretty bad - they had dreadful intonation, soft metal and the low notes were uncontrollable (they tried to fix this by glueing a brass baffle in the upper part of the U tube directly above the D tonehole at some point in time), but the more recent ones that have the Jupiter logo on the socket by the screw are the better ones - and they have a better bore taper and bell flare, earlier ones had a funny shaped bell with an abrupt angle where the flared part was joined.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2005-12-25 07:58)
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Author: sylvangale
Date: 2005-12-26 01:47
Yamaha manufactures musical instruments throughout the world.
The below site lists the countries Yamaha operates in and what type of manufacturing is done there.
http://www.global.yamaha.com/countries/
Yamaha may not manufacture in Taiwan, but they do make wind instruments anywhere from the USA to Indonesia... and then some. Country of manufacture really doesn't matter so long as the maker has sufficient quality control measures in place.
Some counries such as the U.S.A. allow the import and assembly of a musical instruments parts and still retain "made in Japan" as that is where the parts originated.
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Author: Bartleby
Date: 2005-12-29 09:31
I've never known anyone to be disappointed with a Yamaha 32/62. And the older 21s and 23s a fabulous.
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Author: Roger Aldridge
Date: 2005-12-29 15:22
This may be a personal bias, however, I would much rather go with a 1930's Buescher saxophone in good condition than a modern horn selling for a comparable price. The sound, materials, and craftsmanship of a vintage Buescher are extraordinary. My primary tenor is a 1934 Buescher New Aristocrat (2676xx serial number). It has a huge, dark vibrant sound that rings. It's low range, in particular, is like a force of nature. I cannot find a modern horn that has a similar kind of sound. Really, a horn like this will last you through the rest of your life. There are any number of places where you can find good vintage saxophones. If you have a local music shop that has some vintage horns or if you have some sax buddies who have some then you could try out several and see what you think.
The keywork on a '30's Buescher will be a bit different than a modern horn. Never the less, I find it to be more comfortable. If you go the vintage route you'll quickly get used to the keywork and action.
As for a mouthpiece recommendation, I don't think that you can go wrong with a Ralph Morgan mouthpiece. I have several Morgans for each of my horns. My mouthpiece of choice on saxophone is a 6L (large chamber jazz) model. It has a really big, fat, vibrant sound on the dark side that projects like gang busters. It works beautifully for me in big band, small jazz groups, and classical saxophone quartet. Hand-faced Morgans are a bit more expensive than machine-made Selmer and Vandoren mouthpieces. But, they are definitely worth it...and their prices are actually quite a bit less expensive than many other hand-made mouthpieces on the market. I consider them to be a great deal. Several months ago one of my sax buddies tried a Morgan 6L on his Yani tenor and he was completely blown away by it. He couldn't get over how it sounds and how easily it projects to the back of the hall. It's like this big sound jumped right out of his horn. He was sold on the spot.
Good luck on your search!
Roger
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Author: clarinets1
Date: 2005-12-29 21:33
Keilwerths are great horns. Cannonball makes a very nice saxophone for a very affordable price. Cannonball is a company out of Salt Lake City, Utah. we sell them in the music store that i work in. fabulous horns. one can never go wrong with Yamaha and Selmer makes a decent sax as well (quality, in my--very humble--opinion has been fluctuating).
~~a satisfied Keilwerth owner.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-12-29 22:31
The 52 series were never marketed in Europe or Asia (is the .il domain Israel?) - we only had (in Europe) the 23/25, 32 and the 62 until the more recent models were offered, and still excluding the 52 series - not to say we or anyone can't get hold of them as the famous online auction site we've had a gagging order on mentioning often features them.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2005-12-29 22:34)
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Author: Fred
Date: 2005-12-29 22:45
The 32 and the 52 series were identical except that the 52 had engraving and the 32 had red lettering for "Yamaha".
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-12-29 23:55
My first 62 alto (an early one with the better, roomier thumb hook and short socket screw head) had the maroon 'YAMAHA' transfer on the bell, but it came off when I sprayed 'Horn Guard' on when polishing it, so the only identification is on the back below the thumb hook.
I think the 23 was the only model to have the stamped name back then (in the 80s), the earlier 21 and 61 series as well as the then current 32 and 62 had the transfer, but the 32 had more info - 'Nippon Gakki etc. etc.' under the 'YAMAHA' bit.
My 62 bari (from 1990) has the transfer still intact on the bell - I kept the 'Horn Guard' spray away from it.
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Author: Wicked Good ★2017
Date: 2005-12-30 00:41
**My opinion only - your mileage may vary**
While I'll chime in with a "me, too" regarding the Yamaha 62 series, as I've had a YTS-62 tenor since 1981 and it's never let me down, I'd like to toss in another vintage option.
My alto is a 1938 Conn 26M Connqueror, and it is incredible. The tone is big, round and lush and it can easily roar or whisper when required. The keywork is very smooth, too. It's pretty mouthpiece-friendly - I use a Selmer C* S-80 for "classical" work and a David Hite (I forget which facing) for jazz and R&B.
Seriously, if you can find them (I think Dave at Junkdude has a couple), the Conn 26Ms can compete with anything ever produced. They're getting a bit pricey, but a good Conn 6M of the same vintage will get you nearly the same horn for a lot less money.
Look for a 6M or 26M with a Roman numeral "viii" stamped on both the body and neck. Some early 26Ms came with a different style neck (called a "New York" neck, I believe), similar to those found on 30M tenors, and are much more rare. The "viii" horns seem to have really good intonation. Good luck with whatever you choose.
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2005-12-30 03:19
Buy a used King Zephyr.....preferably from the 40s 50's or 60.s. The newer Zephyr's were student horns but the vintage ones play great. I sold my Mark V1 and play on a Zephyr I bought for 600 dollars.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: mikeW
Date: 2005-12-30 19:32
You've gotten various ideas on what brands to consider. I would just add that it's always good to try before you buy. This is especially true if you're considering a vintage sax as the keywork on modern horns is usually more ergonomic. Depending on the size of your hands, this may or may not be a big deal. Also, have a repairman look over the horn as he or she should be able to tell you if its original, how much work it needs, etc. Note that a lot of older horns (1930's and earlier) don't have the front-F, which is quite useful for altissimo playing. Also, the articulated G# was added sometime in the 1920's-1930's. While this can be added to the horn, it does tend to stiffen up the action on the LH table keys. And watch out for high-pitch saxes, as they are pitched much higher than A=440 and are supposed to be a nightmare to play in tune with modern instruments.
You said you tried a Selmer S90 which you liked more than a Vandoren. I've never played a Vandoren sax mouthpiece so I don't know which direction your're trying to go. If you like a brighter, edgier sound, consider mouthpieces with smaller chambers and/or baffles. I would say the Meyer 5M or Selmer S80 C* are middle of the road pieces (for me, the Meyer is more versatile). The S90 is sort of a throwback towards the older, soloist-style Selmer. It still has the square chamber of the S80, but plays with less edge. If you want an even darker sound, consider some of the classical pieces such as a Caravan. If you want more edge than a Meyer, consider some of the Beechler or Claude Lakey pieces. At least, these are my opinions as for alto sax mouthpieces. These are all production pieces, so they shouldn't break the bank.
If we're talking about tenor pieces, I would recommend avoiding the C* or C** facings in favor of the D or E facing, unless you like playing on hard reeds. The closer facings don't seem to have a lot of bite. If you like a darker sound on tenor, consider finding a vintage Buescher or Woodwind & Co mouthpiece (I think Ralph Morgan makes a mouthpiece that is based on the old Buescher piece.) If you like more edge, consider the Berg Larsen or Otto Link pieces.
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