 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 1999-02-25 03:07
I wrote to Francois Kloc of Buffet with our questions on the origin and date of the R13 name. He' started to do some research for us, and here's what he's come up with so far (slightly editied since Francois' native language is French):
<blockquote>
"I did some research on the R13 name and what I came up with is that the R13, R14, etc. naming scheme was created by the United States distributor and not by the Buffet factory. Buffet named the clarinet that Robert Caree started to design around 1953 the "R13" in 1955 when we started production.
Now I have interesting information that I have to double check with the person in charge of the museum at Buffet - this person worked with Robert Caree and with the person before Robert Caree, Paul Lefevre. When Mr. Lefevre died in 1953 Robert Caree became Production Manager and created his polycylindrical bore clarinet. Apparently, and again I
have to check and make sure this is correct, before the R13 we had a clarinet made only for the United States that we called "American Production". This was around 1950 and those apparently were polycylindrical instruments that Robert Caree designed and worked on <B>before</B> he became Production Manager. As soon as he became in charge of Buffet products he revolutionized the clarinet world and put the polycylindrical clarinet in production; Buffet named that the R13.
I hope this helps and I think we may have made a great discovery! I will work on gathering more background information and I'll keep you all posted."
</blockquote>
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Author: John Dean
Date: 1999-02-25 18:13
Hi Mark,
I own an R 13 and this thread is very interesting. I also own a Selmer Centered Tone and would like to learn about Selmer clarinet history. Is there a recent book on the subject?
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Author: Kevin Bowman
Date: 1999-02-25 21:03
John Dean wrote:
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Hi Mark,
I own an R 13 and this thread is very interesting. I also own a Selmer Centered Tone and would like to learn about Selmer clarinet history. Is there a recent book on the subject?
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John -
I also own an R13 and a pre-Balanced Tone Selmer (currently being overhauled). Do you play both your instruments regularly? The R13 is such a wonderful instrument for "legit" music but there's nothing (IMO) that can beat a large bore selmer for jazz I am planning on using my selmer exclusively for jazz and keeping the R13 for classical work.
Kevin Bowman
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Author: Gary Van Cott
Date: 1999-02-25 22:06
This is interesting information. Prior to M. Kloc's information on the origin of the R13, there had been a number of posting on the klarinet list which indicated that it had been created in 1950 or even earlier.
Here is another question? Did Buffet have a C clarinet in production in the 1950s or anytime in recent years before the introduction of the RC C clarinet?
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 1999-02-26 00:30
Gary Van Cott wrote:
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This is interesting information. Prior to M. Kloc's information on the origin of the R13, there had been a number of posting on the klarinet list which indicated that it had been created in 1950 or even earlier.
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A lot of that has come out of Lee Gibson's book, I believe. I have not read it, but if it's anything like his "Clarinalysis" column, it should be cross-checked with other references and then one should make their own judgements on validity.
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 1999-02-26 13:51
Gary Van Cott wrote:
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Did Buffet have a C clarinet in production in the 1950s or anytime in recent years before the introduction of the RC C clarinet?
Gary -
I don't know about the 50s, but I have a "pre-war" Boehm system Buffet C clarinet made in 1928. It's a wonderful instrument.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 1999-02-26 14:07
John Dean wrote:
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I ... would like to learn about Selmer clarinet history. Is there a recent book on the subject?
John -
It's not a book, but there's a good history right here on Sneezy under Equipment/Selmer.
There was also a good thread last fall on the Klarinet board about the Selmer brothers and which of them played in the Boston Symphony. Go to the Klarinet archives on Sneezy and search on "Selmer; Boston" (without the quotes).
Selmer also has some nice pamphlets they give out at trade shows, including one by Alexandre Selmer called, I think, "Instructive Talks to Clarinetists." You can probably ask for them through their web site, www.selmer.com, though I didn't find that one in a quick look.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Bill Fogle
Date: 1999-03-01 13:47
This is great information, Mark!!!!!! I have read O. Lee Gibson's book, "Clarinet Acoustics," and the information you posted here is not in that book.
This is fascinating! Tom Ridenour has [had?] a lot to say about R-13's (not as much much "history" as analysis of playing chjaracteristics), available on the Archives.
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Author: Gary Van Cott
Date: 1999-03-01 15:41
"I did some research on the R13 name and what I came up with is that the R13, R14, etc. naming scheme was created by the United States distributor and not by the Buffet factory. Buffet named the clarinet that Robert Caree started to design around 1953 the "R13" in 1955 when we started production. "
Now another take on this might suggest there was an "R13" being sold in the US before the bore changes were made by Caree. (?)
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Author: S.W. Franklin
Date: 1999-03-01 17:37
Hi, this message is primarily for Mark Charette. Here we go again. On February 26, 1998, I called B&H (800 426-7069) and spoke to Francois Kloc. I asked him about my R-16 3/4 and the fingering. He said that he was not familiar with this clarinet, but that he was going to France in March 1998, and would speak to someone about it and call me when he returned to the ststes. I gave him my telephone number. Incidentaly, he also spoke to my wife, who is French, so I know that there was no misunderstanding because of language. He never did call after he returned from France. I guess I could have called him, but it seemed to me that he should have called me, since he said that he would, to let me know what, if anything, he learned about the fingering. Two or three years ago I called B&H and I was told that there was no such Buffet clarinet as an R-16 3/4. They had an employee there who had been there at least 50 years (I was told), and he was the one who said there was no such clarinet. So much for what people think they remember. I was also told that many of the records were lost during WW II. If this is true or not, I don't know. I cannot imagine why pre-WW II records would have been lost or destroyed. My wife and I usually make a month long trip to France. We did not go last year because of other commitments. We will be going this year and it might be interesting to stop by Buffet with copies of all these messages and the 1941 Buffet literature I have and see what they make of this. I am certain it would be very interesting since, I am sure, that the R-13, R-13 1/2, R-14, R-14 1/2, R-1`6, and the R-16 3/4 were all made in France. These clarinets were made prior to 1941, and while they may not be polycylindrical, they were still identified as R clarinets. I note, that in my literature, a RUDOLPH DUNBAR is identified as "EUROPES GREATEST CLARINSTIST" AND he used one of the R clarinets shown in this literature. I would be very happy to provide Monsieur Kloc with a copy. So I for one do not believe that the US distributer who, I am reasonably, certain was Carl Fisher, Inc., created a naming scheme for the world famous Buffet line of clarinets and other woodwind instruments. Incidently, I would be very happy to speak to Monsieur Kloc, in French or English, if he wishes. All he has to do is get on the Clarinet BB. I will then be happy to call him on his toll free number. Actually, I would rather communicate with him on the BB and, oh yes, I will provide him with a copy of the 1941 literature by email,FAX, or the US Postal system. Thanks for chance to air my opinions.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 1999-03-01 20:59
S.W. Franklin wrote:
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I am certain it would be very interesting since, I am sure, that the R-13, R-13 1/2, R-14, R-14 1/2, R-1`6, and the R-16 3/4 were all made in France.
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Mr. Kloc did not say they were <b>not</b> made in France, but that they were for North American consumption. A similar thing occurs today with the "International" model.
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Mr. Franklin also wrote:
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So I for one do not believe that the US distributer who, I am reasonably, certain was Carl Fisher, Inc., created a naming scheme for the world famous Buffet line of clarinets and other woodwind instruments.
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Well, I do know that it was common practice for manufacturers to have their clarinets re-labelled (just a cursory glance through the New Langwill shows that), and since I see the "C13/International" as being a contemporary instrument only available in NA, it doesn't seem too far-fetched to me.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 1999-03-01 21:01
Gary Van Cott wrote:
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"I did some research on the R13 name and what I came up with is that the R13, R14, etc. naming scheme was created by the United States distributor and not by the Buffet factory. Buffet named the clarinet that Robert Caree started to design around 1953 the "R13" in 1955 when we started production. "
Now another take on this might suggest there was an "R13" being sold in the US before the bore changes were made by Caree. (?)
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That is exactly correct. There was an American R13 available - but Buffet (the company) labelled it as such for at least the American market. It was not labelled as such in France. At least according to whoever runs the Buffet museum, whereever that is.
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Author: Dee
Date: 1999-03-02 00:48
Every one is losing sight of something here. And that is that if you were to tell someone else that you owned an R-13, they would expect it to play and sound like the polycylindrical model that came out in the 1950s. If it did not, they would probably believe that they were being lied to. So does it matter if it was the distributor who had them labelled for the American market or if Buffet re-cycled the name? I don't think so. The main point is a person describing the instrument needs to be aware of what the listener is going to attach to that description and be sure the listener is not misled.
Only those few people who have followed this discussion will be aware of the name problem. The rest of the world will continue to expect that R-13 refers to the 1950s and later polycylindrical design regardless of the information that surfaces from the on-going discussion and research.
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Author: S.W. Franklin
Date: 1999-03-03 04:35
I am facinated by all of the discussion about who and when the R-13 was "named". Gary Van Cott states that his research on the R-13, etc., names were created by the US distributer and not by the Buffet factory. He did not name the US distributer. Back in 1941, as I said previously, I believe the US distributer was Carl Fisher, Inc. If Gary's research concluded that this was not true, then who was the US distributer in 1941? Regardless, Mark, why not contact whoever was the US distributer and find out what their records reflect? It may not be necessary to go back as far as 1941. I know that Carl Fisher, Inc. is no longer involved in selling instruments (my wife and I went to Chicago last year, and I wanted to show her where I used to take my music lessons in Kimball Hall at 306 South Wabash Ave. and was surprised by the changes and the fact that they no longer sold musical instruments) but I would not be surprised if they had records that would prove or disprove that they created there own names for the Buffet clarinets. And doesn't it seem awfully strange that the "R" series appeared in the US so long ago and that the Buffet factory, out of the blue, chose to name a "new type" of clarinet as an "R" clarinet. I wonder how the Buffet factory kept track of the clarinets they produced. They certainly assigned serial numbers to their clarinets, but did they identify the model clarinet as they assigned the serial numbers? I would find it difficult to believe that the Buffet factory would not be able to, given a serial number, not be able to identify the model of clarinet that they produced. By the way, Mark, you say Buffet (the company) labelled it (the American R-13)for at least the American market. What did they, the Buffet Company, label the American R-13 for the rest of the world? Was it the same clarinet as the American R-13 but with a different name or number? I guess the most vexing thing about the entire thing is that you say the Buffet Company labelled the R-13 clarinet and others claim the US distributer named the clarinet R-13. It appears that something is radically wrong and that there is a great deal being said that may not necessarily be true but rather what some people would like to believe is true. The only way I see to really settle the whole matter is for someone to produce "records" to substaniate what they state. Please do not take any of my comments the wrong way. I had been warned that there were individuals who would not find it easy to believe that anything that would spoil their notions about THE R-13 that began life in the fifties. Thanks for putting up with me. I may be in my seventies, but, believe me, I am of sound mind.
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Author: Bill Fogle
Date: 1999-03-03 14:40
Oh, I think everything matters. I'm not able to understand why instrument manufacturers can't or won't supply more information to a hungry (needs to get out more often?) public. If I was in marketing at Leblanc or Selmer (I wouldn't work for Buffet, I bet they don't even have a candy machine), I'd capitalize (pun intended) on the interest of people just like me in brand and model history, changes, everything . . . you wouldn't believe how dry a book on clarinet manufacture I'd find fascinating. I'll take ALL those details, thank you! --Bill.
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Author: Dee
Date: 1999-03-04 00:39
Got news for all you people out there. It has only been in the last few decades that industries in general kept the serial number records. It is NOT unique that instrument makers did not keep records of serial numbers or keep their older records. Although some comapnies did keep serial nuber records, many did not. It is the result of modern quality systems, easier record keeping, and the need to protect oneself legally (warranties and liabilities) that has led industries to now maintain such records.
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