 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: bwilber
Date: 2005-12-23 11:49
I am wondering about silverplating. If a person has a really great clarinet and wanted to get it silverplated, about how much does it cost and can a person do it themselves? Thanks for any help.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-12-23 12:38
In the UK it's around the £100 mark for plating a set of keys, but they do need fitting afterwards - all the key barrels will need reaming out (to the diameter of the steels) and the ends fraising back so they fit between the pillars, any threads will need to be tapped out (as in the throat G# adjusting screw pip) and the keys that are mounted on point screws will need the ends countersunk so they fit and work smothly, unless they're worn out and the plating takes up the wear.
It's not always necessary to have the pillars plated (they can be cleaned up with a strip of silver cloth once the springs have been removed), but if you do, mount them on lengths of brass wire twisted around the threaded part, left loose enough for them to move but not fall out (otherwise you'll get wire marks on the plating), and note down where each pillar and other fittings came from, and also mark each wired set of pillars (probably 3 wires) with a knot in the top, or two or three so you know which wire carries the pillars you've noted down. When replacing the pillars you'll find they may not line up as they did, so warm them up in a flame from a bunsen burner (without burning the wood) so they can turn to the position they were once in, and you might have to tap out the threads and ream out the tops where the screws pass through, and replace all the springs.
If you have a bench motor or lathe, or a dremel mounted in a vice you can use that with a reamer (of the right size) to ream out the key barrels, and you may need to tap out the threads in the side keys, speaker key and throat A key for the flat spring screws.
The top trill keys are a pain to refit as the lower (Bb) trill usually runs on the outside of the A-B trill key (unless it's a Leblanc or Howarth where the trills are mounted seperately). The desired result is the lower trill moving smothly but with no wobble, and this isn't an easy feat to get right, especially as the barrels can be slightly tapered, but do try to avoid any excess wobble once they've been fitted.
Make sure the thumb bush is also in properly, so the cutaway on the inside lines up with the curvature of the bore, and that the thumb ring doesn't catch on the outside as both these will have increased in size slightly - if there's not much clearance between them before plating, open up the inside of the thumb ring or turn the outside of the thumb bush down a bit to avoid them binding afterwards.
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Author: bwilber
Date: 2005-12-23 12:59
I had no idea of what all is involed in silverplating. No wonder, older clarinets that have been "redone" like this cost so much on Ebay. Thanks for all of your advice. Think I will leave it to others to do it, not me though. Bonnie
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Author: William
Date: 2005-12-24 16:45
Just to add, all of my 15+ clarinets (effer to low C bass) are silver plated and the advantages--for me, anyhow--are that: 1) the plating feels good under my fingers; 2) it looks good and is durable--none of my clarinets show any wear even afters years of use. I also have one Buffet Bb R13 plated in gold--looks great and has lasted now for 12 yrs without any evidence of wear.
Your average nickle plating looks good, initially, but will eventually wear where your fingers have the most frequent contact. And when that happens, there is nothing you can do. Any blackness that might occure with silver can be polished back to its original shine. Not so with nickel--when its gone, its GONE.
Silver plating?? I say, go for it--you will have no regrets. And I would definatly recommend having it done by an experianced repair person/facility. This is not a Home Depot project.
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Author: bwilber
Date: 2005-12-24 17:01
Thank you for your helpful encouragement and advice. Bonnie
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-12-24 17:02
And have a minimum of 25 microns of silver as well with a nickel flash underneath - if there are any imperfections in the plating (frosting or lumps) these can be burnished out and buffed (with rouge) without the danger of going through the plate.
But the keys must be prepared well before plating - by filing and papering out any pitting or scratches so they're smooth and shiny before plating, and best to make sure there's plenty of clearance between keys before plating, if not, then file them where you feel they could bind afterwards, and so you don't have to do any filing after they're all plated.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2005-12-25 15:39
> Not so with nickel--when its gone, its GONE.
William,
true enough. I have two "vintage" (IOW: oooold) clarinets whose keys show wear (especially the register key and the "fly-by victim" throat G# key); buffing would restore the shine, but only for maybe a week. :(
I stopped the re-tarnishing with crystal clear nail varnish; it's quite durable, has a good "grip" and if it's gone after three to four months it's comparably easy to re-apply. Best of all - they keys don't have to be disassembled...
Never a replacement for professionally plated keys, but IMHO a feasible short-term better-than-nothing solution.
--
Ben
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Author: BobD
Date: 2005-12-26 12:40
"Any blackness that might occure with silver can be polished back to its original shine. Not so with nickel--when its gone, its GONE."
The blackness is silver sulfide, a compound that combines silver with sulfur.
When you polish it, it comes off on the rag and the silver is Gone just like the nickel is gone. Polishing blackened silver plated keys removes silver...period. There is no free lunch.
Bob Draznik
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-12-26 12:44
Bob - that's fairly depressing news! I knew that I disliked tarnish, but now I really dislike it.
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Author: bwilber
Date: 2005-12-27 10:33
Can anyone tell me about how much it costs to have the keys and posts, etc. silver plated in the United States and where in Wisconsin it can be done? Thanks.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-12-27 14:18
Contact Leblanc and find out who they use, unless they do their own plating in house. That's the only Wisconsin company I can think of.
I used the company that makes Buffet and Rigoutat key castings in France to silverplate my R13 Eb, they do an excellent job (but they're more expensive than the UK company I normally use) - and they also do the preparation as well which probably explains the cost, but it's money well spent.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2005-12-27 14:18)
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Author: BobD
Date: 2005-12-27 15:11
Happy H , David, that should cheeer you up. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I see guys playing saxes that look like old cookware but the sound is fab.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2005-12-27 15:26
One thing not yet mentioned about silver plate is that it is much less "slippery" under the fingers than is nickel plating. Before I had them done in silver, the "stretch" keys for the left hand little finger on my Selmer Model 33 were not a "sure" thing; afterwards I've not had a slipping problem since.
And, careful use with any horn will still, even with other surfaces, result in "wear" of the finish. You just get it redone now and then (unless it's a Mark VI, in which case you are viewed as insane for performing such maintenance).
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2005-12-27 16:28
If you slip on nickel-plated keys, try the nail varnish trick. (not the red one, maybe...) Works for me.
--
Ben
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-12-27 16:36
What about electric blue?
Clear nail varnish is a good all round thing to have, it seals the binding on oboe and cor reeds, can be used for locking loose screws and touching up lacquer on sax keys where they've been filed.
But there is one repairer who uses purple nail varnish on loose adjusting screws, so I know instantly who has worked on an instrument when I see this - the last instrument I saw was a new Leblanc Concerto II - every adjusting screw (and they were ALL loose) had purple nail varnish on them - and they were still loose!
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2005-12-28 00:45
Thanks for opening this thread, I've been thinking about having my LeBlanc Concerto A silver plated but never got around to enquiring about it. Can someone recommend anyone (anywhere in the world, really) who can comepletely do my currently nickel-plated Concerto A?
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2005-12-28 14:15
The purple stuff is probably not nail polish but rather one of the many varieties of Loc-Tite, a screw locking compound that is much used in the industrial world (and around my house as well). It comes in a wide variety of strengths and colors, each with a specific "holding strength" for different applications.
For example, using it on a set screw on an electric motor shaft might call for a very high breaking strength variety, which may be colored "yellow" (I've long since forgotten the code here, folks), while the garden variety adjustment screw subject only to occasional vibration might get the "blue" variety. (I think that "blue" is the everyday solution version.)
It's mostly a mechanic and machine shop type item, but there are many uses elsewhere as well (such as with clarinet screws and rod screws that consistently work out of place. I have it on three problem rod screws on my baritone, knowing that they will never work out on their own but will remove with a screwdriver without any damage at all.
It's good stuff, marred only by never having the right type available when you need it in a non-machine shop setting (voice of experience speaking). The tubes are quite large, and they dry up like super glue if you are not careful with keeping them well sealed and all. Large industrial establishments (think blow out preventer valves for oil wells and the like) buy it in five gallon pails.
I used to use three different varieties back in my days in the field in RVN, as I quickly found that tank track end connectors which had the high breaking strength material applied to the wedge bolts never ever came loose. Avoiding such an event on the side of a small mountain at three o'clock in the afternoon was a "good thing", to quote Martha Stewart.
I had to have it shipped over in care packages from the USA; everyone else was getting cookies and cassette tapes from home and I was having my girlfriend send me stuff from Grainger Industrial Supply. It was well worth the trouble (says the guy with a badly scarred right thumb, the reminder of an unpleasant end connector bolt experience...)
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-12-28 16:22
If only it was Loctite, at least that would be a step in the right direction - this repairer definitely doesn't use that, and his skills as a repairer are questionable.
Probably a good thing he's 'retired' from his 'profession'.
FAO Morrigan:
Ignore all the stuff about plating of what ever kind changing the tone - I probably don't have to tell you that it's all nonsense anyway, but if you do decide to have your Concerto silver plated (I'm surprised it's in nickel plate to be honest) then go ahead - but obviously it means a complete stripdown, unless you don't want the pillars and some fittings done as Leblanc have done - most older pro Leblancs with silver plated keys have nickel plated pillars and speaker bush.
But if you do decide to have the pillars and fittings done as well, only have a maximum of 12 microns on them (so the dimentions aren't dramatically changed), but definitely 25 microns on the keywork. I think Leblanc use 2mm and 2.4mm inside diameter key tubing - but if you're planning to do the repadding yourself, measure the steels and get the right size reamers so you can ream them out after they're plated.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2005-12-28 16:32)
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Author: jbutler ★2017
Date: 2005-12-28 21:24
bwilber,
There are several companies that can silver plate. You will have to have the key corks and pads replaced of course, so depending on the age of the clarinet it might be a good time for an overhaul at the same time.
Rex Bullock
Ed Myers USA
107 W Turbo Drive
San Antonio, TX 78216
800-228-9188
(Plating/Overhaul Service Available)
Anderson Silver Plating Co
541 Industrial Parkway
Elkhart, IN 574-294-6447
(Plating Only)
Phillips Music Corporation
17668 State Highway B
Kirksville, MO 63501
660-665-5889
(Plating/Overhaul Service Available)
Any competent repair tech can prep the keys, posts, rings and send them off for plating and then do the overhaul. I ususally send my work out to Rex Bullock or to Anderson. Plating prices usually run anywhere from $175 to $250.
jbutler
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Author: BobD
Date: 2005-12-28 22:37
"But there is one repairer who uses purple nail varnish on loose adjusting screws, so I know instantly who has worked on an instrument when I see this "
Don't be too sure, Chris. Thank goodness I'm not guy you're referring to after seeing your assessment of his qualifications. IMHO loctite is probably a bit too severe for A key adjustment screws and nail polish of any visible color is probably a better sealer as it can be removed more easily. I've never used nail varnish.....any color.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-12-28 22:44
It's definitely not you Bob - this person is in the UK, and it makes my blood boil when I see what he's done to several Mk.VI tenors.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2005-12-28 22:44
I use nail varnish on a regular basis to secure screws that aren't very much stressed (read: computer-related stuff). After all, it's just paint with a handy applicator.
It's not so much of a loctite-effect but rather a "tamper detection" when manufacturers use varnish to "secure" screws...hence the "factory-exclusive" colours like "slime green" or "pinkaboo".
--
Ben
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-12-28 23:36
Never replate a Mark VI Sax unless you want to put it in a display case and never play it again.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-12-28 23:59
I'd rather buy a Mk.VI with the original lacquer, no matter how worn out it is and more importantly left as it is (except for a full overhaul), and it makes me cringe when I see so many that have been relacquered only for sake of appearence, and the engraving buffed out.
And there's a player locally that has (or HAD) a 1955 alto that has been butchered, and he regrets having it done (as well as being disappointed with the overhaul) - I pleaded with him not to, but did he listen? Did he ****!
But that's a different repairer as previously mentioned - this one has done the same injustice to Conn Conqueror tenors, X-bar baris and several other classics - Selmer SBAs included! They all look like shiny new saxes, and more like new Chinese saxes rather than the classics they are (or once were).
There should be a law against it.
But replating worn silver or silver plating over nickel plated keys on oboes or clarinets I have no problems with.
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2005-12-29 13:25
I've run into a number of rebuilds of Selmer saxophones where a Clever Hans has gone and set all of the touchpieces to a uniform height. Sure, it feels "right" and great under the hands, but unfortunately it sounds like crap as the tuning is thereby completely messed up. Some people don't have a clue...
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-12-29 13:37
I have a student right now who has been collecting pristine Mark VI Tenor Saxes - all of the ones he has have almost 100% original plating in tact. (dates from the early 60's to early 70's - mostly from the 60's!)
That's one expensive hobby.......
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