 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: bwilber
Date: 2005-12-16 12:12
I have restored several old clarinets with the Valentino pads and they work great as you can seat the pads with a hot hair drier. The problem is they are so expensive. Does anyone know of a material that is similar that will work and I can make my own pads? Thanks.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2005-12-16 13:46
Am I the ONLY person who finds these pads competely UNACCEPTABLE???
The soft nature of the edges blurs the distinction of the note to note sound particularly in trills, particularly on the side keys.
Even though they seem pliable, the compression is almost non existant where you need it, the one and one B-flat. Both the vent between "Left one" and "two" and the vent above "Right one" need more "give" than the Valentinos got.
Just like cork, if something, anything goes wrong with the pad, you need to replace the whole pad immediately.
The sound of a whole horn with these pads is deadened by the nature of the material (the reverse affect one gets from Gortex).
Let's have more meaningful R&D in the clarinet pad world, or just use the time tested corks and fishskins (or leather for all you Europeans out there).
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-12-16 13:49
Valentino pads may work well initially on plastic bodied instruments, but before long they will become very sticky - and caused nothing but grief on Buffet B10s that were padded with them.
They were a good concept but proved to be a disaster in practice.
They do work better on wooden bodied clarinets (I used them on oboes - the white ones and NOT the borwn ones, they're porous!) but it's probably best to heat them with a hairdryer to flatten them before mounting them in the pad cups.
The danger of heating them then closing to make them seal can leave a deep impression in them which can also cause them to stick.
Better to float them as you'd do with normal pads, whichever type of pads you consider to be normal.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-12-16 14:36
I had some trouble with pad seating/key adjusting of my bass cl's neck-located register [DRK] key [normally closed], so I put on a Valentino 9 1/2 - 10 pad, which still shows only slight identation of the tone hole, but it performs beautifully. I have had less-good success with Val's on sop cls, tho. Very easy to apply, tho. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-12-16 15:48
But for the record, the brown coloured fake cork Valentino pads are totally USELESS! Never use these, they're not in the slightest bit airtight.
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Author: DH818
Date: 2005-12-16 16:18
A customer of mine recently bought a rebuilt Selmer Paris Mazzeo system clarinet that was installed with the white valentino pads. He sent the clarinet to me after finding the setup unacceptable. My conclusion was the spring-like quality of the foam added complexity to the array of tensions required for the clarinet to respond consistently and properly. After removing the foam pads and proper seating of a good set of double bladder pads the instrument played like it should.
I'm saying there may be applications and circumstances that the foam pads will work ok for...but I doubt I'll be using them.
Donald C Hinson
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Author: DAVE
Date: 2005-12-16 21:43
Guy Chadash repaded my R13s with these on the lower joints and I caould not be happier. The seal is second to none and I have never noticed a drop in sound quality. I have had great success useing the green backs on many clarinets that I have repadded for my students. These pads have held up very well and seal perfectly.
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Author: mnorswor
Date: 2005-12-16 21:53
I'm rather surprised that nobody but one person has mentioned what these pads do to the sound of the instrument. For me, they significantly brighten up the sound and contribute a tremendous amount of key noise. I don't care for them at all. Morrie Backun installed some of them on my A clarinet and I had them removed after a couple of months because I just didn't like them at all.
As far as a seal is concerned...correct me if I'm wrong, but because of the way they take a seat on the tone hole, there's no room for play in the keys because they will only seat in one, and only one particular place. That place being where the pad takes an indentation from the tone hole. This is unacceptable to me as well.
--Michael
http://www.michaelnorsworthy.com
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-12-16 21:55
I have a load of green backs and have contemplated using them on an old B&H Marlborough (same as an Edgware), but I'd never use them on a plastic clarinet. But I didn't like the idea of heating them up while on the instrument - the wood get a bit warm as well, so I'd heat them up before putting them in to get them flat.
I've padded wooden bodied student oboes with these too, but I tried the artificial cork ones - even though they felt like they were sealing perfectly (using Rizla papers as feeler gauges), they were porous when suction and pressure tested, so useless for any application, except maybe for a replacement bumper cork on a cheap sax.
And I have a load of Buffet Gore Tex pads as well - though I couldn't find them when I needed them. I overhauled a B&H 1010 and the owner specified he wants as many synthetic pads as possible what with him being a vegetarian, and cork pads appealed to his beliefs, but I did have to use 3 large brown leather pads for the lowest 3 pad cups.
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Author: Clarinetgirl06
Date: 2005-12-17 03:03
OK, I am really confused about the different types of pads! What are they exactly, what are their functions, and what sound/playing characteristics do they possess?
I have cork pads on most of the upper joint with a few bladder pads. On my lower joint I have all bladder pads except I have 1 white leather pad on my Bb/F pad to help it seal/suction better (or so my tech says).
Post Edited (2005-12-17 03:05)
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Author: Ed
Date: 2005-12-17 03:09
I have had Valentinos on my instruments over the years and have found them to work well. I have found them to last very well, seal great, and not had any issues with the tone.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-12-17 14:27
Valentino pads are synthetic pads with several layers - the surface layer is smooth and shiny where it closes against the tonehole, the thicker middle layer is a high density foam and the backing is a layer of glue with thin green card stuck to it. They were used in Buffet B10 clarinets but had the annoying tendency to get very sticky against the plastic toneholes.
Gore-Tex pads look like white leather pads, only the covering is white Gore-Tex instead of leather, and these are used in Buffet Prestige clarinets. These can also get sticky, so keeping them clean and dry is important.
Double-bladder pads have a covering of Goldbeaters skin (2 layers), the same skin used in sausage skin from the thin membrane lining cow intestines (and not fish skin as is commonly thought), a felt disc and a thick card backing, and these are the most commonly used pads. They are easily damaged, thet can stick, buzz, tear, soak up water and other problems.
Leather pads have either a brown or white leather covering, felt disc and card backing, but they fit inside the pad cup as opposed to skin (and Gore-Tex) pads which have a step and only the larger diameter felt disc part is outside the pad cup. Becoming more popular now, but in the UK they've been used for a long time, and German clarinets are traditionally padded with white leather pads. They can dry out and harden with age though, and some new leather pads have a plastic waterproof coating which makes them sticky.
Cork pads are made from solid cork of the highest quality, but these are the most difficult to seat well by inexperienced people - the toneholes have to be perfect and the pads have to close exactly on the tonehole to seal well - there's little give in these so they do have to be mounted perfectly. But they are the most stable and will outlast all the other types as long as they're well maintained.
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Author: Clarinetgirl06
Date: 2005-12-17 20:00
Thank you very much Chris P! What are Stranbinger (sp?) pads then? What are the pads that look black? What are those weird pads that were used on the Buffet Elites and some Leblancs that have this metal on them or something to help them resonate or something like that?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-12-17 21:03
I only know of Straubinger flute pads - I think they're firmer than normal felt pads so they feel better for flute players rather than the thick, squishy felt pads some flutes have, but I've never seen any up close.
Peter Eaton (and others) uses a black pad - I think these are 'Supapads', but I've never seen or used these either.
There are Norbek (I think) pads that have a silicone rubber facing, and a rubberised cork backing, but like cork pads (and all other pads!), these have to be seated accurately and the toneholes have to be absolutely perfect in order to ensure a perfect seal
Buffet Prestige basses and Toscas, as well as Leblanc Opus have screw in metal resonators on some pads (Buffet basses have them on the top joint main action) like flutes have, this keeps the middle of the pad flat to help the clarity of the low G, F# and F. You'll see on older clarinets that haven't been repadded in a while that the pads tend to bulge in the middle, and this can make some notes stuffy as the venting is decreased.
These pads are glued in as normal, but have a hole punched through the middle so the resonator screw can be screwed into a threaded lug soldered inside the pad cup after the pad has been seated, but best to check it's still seating once the resonator is in place.
But I personally like to use cork and leather pads, more cork than leather - only using leather in the large pad cups as I can't get 16mm cork pads - maximum size I can get is 13.5 which is alright for the Ab/Eb key.
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Author: donald
Date: 2005-12-19 20:34
interesting to hear negative comments about the Valentino Greenback pads as i know a number of very busy pro players who use them, and the only complaint i've heard was that they sometimes get a bit sticky. I have found that the Eflat/Aflat key on my R13 Bflat sometimes sticks, so i frequently put the clarinet to bed with a cigarette paper under the pad.
While i have a good deal of respect for the discerning ear of Michael Norsworthy, the one clarinetplayer in NZ who gets the most positive comments about tone (from other clarinet players, critics AND my mother) has used these exclusively for the last 5 years. Maybe he'd sound better if he didn't use them!
I'm not 100% sold on them, but they seem to be very reliable for players who don't have local access to a top knotch repair-person. The Valentino pads on my clarinets have been working just fine for the last 2 years of "full on" playing and haven't needed any adjustment etc.
donald
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-12-19 22:33
Probably the problems were more widespread with Buffet B10s as these are mainly beginner and rental clarinets, and the chances are they weren't maintained as well as some intermediate or pro instruments (and there are plenty of pros that don't look after their instruments), or mostly played by youngsters that have a sweet tooth, and the resulting sugar from bubble gum, sweets and fizzy drinks played an unforseen havoc with plastic bodied clarinets and Valentino pads where they all met.
Now there's a lethal coctail.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-12-20 15:08
I don't think there's much in it soundwise - I like cork pads as they're reliable.
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Author: jbutler ★2017
Date: 2005-12-20 18:58
Players either like or disdain Valentino pads. I don't particularly care for them personally because they tend to leak as the pad seat becomes deeper with use. I think they work well on the register key, which is the only key I use them on anymore unless requested.
jbutler
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2005-12-20 19:19
Cork pads are not entirely perfect either...they are known to crack and shift as well as leak on clarinets too...in fact they are also quite noisy and tend to shift in humid weather. The perfect pad has not been invented...
I use Valentino pads on both my A and Bb clarinet and if they are placed and sealed properly should last a long time...I find cork tends to last less than a year and perform too noisy especially when doing recording work.
David Dow
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2005-12-20 20:20
> Since the clarinet is lined with holes and these holes are covered
> with a sound absorbing material it must make a big difference
> having even a small change in material.
Caution: Layperson's wording...
The sound (a pressure wave) /entering/ a tone hole is most probably killed by the reflection /leaving/ the tone hole (if the tone hole's diameter is a lot smaller than the wave length of the sound (~75cm at 440Hz). If the pressure wave is absorbed by the pad material, it is killed as well.
If the padding material would indeed make a big difference, I bet there are players who experimented with latex gloves or whatever suitable finger covering material.
--
Ben
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2005-12-20 22:20
> I don't have an education in acoustics
Welcome. I haven't either, just physics.
Think of a speaker at one end of a closed cardboard tube (a poster roll, for example) This is our tone hole. If the other end is sealed air tight, you have a closed air column inside that tube. When the speaker is actuated, it sends a pressure wave towards the opposite end, where it is reflected and comes back. If the frequency of the speaker sound and the length/diameter of the tube are "in tune" (resonance frequency), the tube will start humming (if it's a cardboard tube where the air "shock waves" will try to escape via the tube walls) or everything will get silent (when it's a thick walled ceramic plumbing tube). The very same principle is used in "resonance tube mufflers" in [not only] model aircrafts - the reflected shock wave will push unburnt fuel/air that wants to escape back into the cylinder, acting as a "poor man's turbo charger")
The material on the tube end will not play a significant role as both a metal cap (good reflector) as well as a felt-padded cap will reflect the pressure waves. (because it's still air-tight). There may be a delay because of the felt's compression, and there might be an attenuation of the reflected wave (because a minute amount of energy is converted to heat), but you still deal with the same amount of air in motion.
When the diameter of the tube is in a sufficiently favourable relation with the frequency of the waves (half lambda? quarter lambda?), then we have to deal with echoes and interferences.
As the tone hole dimensions in a wind instrument are negligible in relation to the frequencies used, all their purpose is to let the air column collapse, either at the fundamental or the overtones. (I assume the diameter of the tone holes has some relation to the frequency, but can't find an oh-so-clever explanation right now)
But I agree with the gimmick idea. Should we trademark the "Clarinetist glove" (made of bladder and felt to eradicate the difference between padded and fingered holes, resulting in an excellently equilibrated sound)
--
Ben
Post Edited (2005-12-20 22:21)
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2005-12-20 22:44
I have Valentino on my clarinet. They have lasted a long time. As far as installation this is not as simple as some would have you believe. Too much heat and it's no good! On keys that are closed the seat does get very deep after awhile....like trill keys. Get them installed by someone who likes the pad and installs them regularly. The pad I understand has gone through modifications (improvements) which are indicated by the colour of the back of the pad.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2005-12-22 21:01
The Valentino pads I prefer for the upper joint closed pads and for the side key Eb right and left had upper joint keys
I prefer cork as well for the octave key and find Valentino pads not very good for octave key function..
As to lower joint I use Glotin leather pads....
David Dow
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2005-12-22 21:01
As with any type of pad the seating has to be done properly and the keywork of course must be in proper regulation for any type of pad to work correctly...
As to clarinets that are plastic I have had no problems with Valentinos for student model clarinets...
David Dow
Post Edited (2005-12-22 21:03)
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