 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Walter
Date: 2005-12-12 21:53
Hello everyone,
I just purchased two metal clarinets from EBay. One is a Bettoney 3 star model with the serial number 7586H. The other is a Penzel Mueller American Gloritone with the serial number 70141. Does anyone know how old these clarinets are? Also, does anyone on this list use a metal clarinet exclusively?
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Author: tims
Date: 2005-12-13 03:07
I own a Bettoney three star that I restored it to playing condition...it's not a very good instrument, but fun to get out every now and then. Virtually all metal clarinets, with the exception of the rare William S Haynes double wall model, were made for the public school band trade from the 1930's to 1950's. This was the time when schools provided ALL instruments to band students and not just the bigger more expensive horns. There were not very high expectations other than they be durable and cheap.
Manufacturing techniques improved considerably by the mid 60's that most student instruments of both wood and plastic from then forward are far superior instruments. Even the much maligned Bundy and Vito are better instruments, though I must admit my Bettony is probably better than the "La Paree" clarinet one of my students had purchased from Western Auto in the 1970's (this is no joke, there was such a horn and for the life of me I'll never know why Western Auto felt they needed to carry musical instruments).
The Haynes Clarinet was made by the famous flute maker in Boston back in the 1930's (I think). This was written about recently in one of the clarinet magazines. One also recently came available as part of an estate sale in New England. The value of such a horn is in the $8000 to $10000 range, though I suspect, given its rarity, it could easily fetch more. This was an excellent horn and a few major symphony clarinetists at the time swore it was the finest horn ever made. Few people today will ever have the opportunity to play one.
Most metal clarinets are more a curiosity than a serious instruments. I have fun with mine, but I would never use it to play in public (the pitch is just too all-over-the-place). I did pad it entirely with cork, so I could play it in the rain safely, but given a choice, I'd just not play in the rain. More of these are ending up as lamps than playable instruments.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2005-12-13 14:52
Wow, Tims, that's fascinating......is this a test?
Bob Draznik
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-12-13 15:12
Walter - We have a metal cl EXPERT on our BB, look up [Search] for Jim Lande's posts and his long list of many metals with much info. I, like many BBoarders, have a few and know something of their "funny" history. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-12-13 15:21
Tims,
The aforementioned Jim Lande has possibly one of the finest collection of excellent working metal clarinets in the world, and I have been privileged to play some of them. I can assure you that these are serious instruments, not toys. The better ones will hold their own with (and sound indistinguishable from, IMHO) the best wood clarinets. Unfortunately most of the metal clarinets seen by the general public ARE lamps or lamp-quality, so I can understand your point of view.
As I've posted in another thread, the two Bb clarinets that I play regularly these days are both Penzel-Mueller "Artist Model" instruments; one is grenadilla with solid-silver(!) keys, and the other is a metal-body clarinet, silver-plated. They both play great and I could use either in an orchestral setting if called upon to do so -- the metal one is definitely not a toy.
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2005-12-13 15:39
Once again, the quality of metal clarinets, while originally at a par to that of wooden ones from the golden days of band instruments, suffers in the eyes of the public. However, it's not due to the original quality (which, as mentioned, can be equal to that of a wooden horn) but to the lack of maintenance that the typical metal clarinet has most likely suffered over the years.
I too have played on well set up Selmer metal horns, and I found them to be equal of the equivalent aged wood horns. True, they stank like an old saxophone in all cases but one, but they played the same when in hand, felt the same as far as resistance was concerned, and sounded the same when I heard someone else playing them behind a screen.
However, the likelihood of encountering one these days is in the slim to none column. The "flood" of quality wooden horns, combined with the taste for things new and shiny, have relegated the metal clarinet to the curiosity bin, and only those dedicated to keeping one alive are likely to know the difference.
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: DH818
Date: 2005-12-13 15:43
I restore clarinets full time, and the metal ones seem to be turning into a hobby within my business. I have personal experience with several models that are very high quality, and fun to play either in private or public. HN White King models "Silver King" and "Cleveland"...Selmer Paris...C.G. Conn model 524N...There are others, but I can tell from experience these are all very good instruments.
Donald C Hinson
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2005-12-13 15:45
I bought a metal clarinet on eBay several years ago and had it restored to playing condition. It was a Pedler and wasn't a very good brand, but it sounded really nice. I sold it a couple of years later and got what I paid for it MINUS the overhaul.
They were mainly used around the time of WWII and some in the 50s for marching bands. A friend who owns several music stores and and one of the largest repair shops in the country said the King clarinet was pretty good, but I've never seen one.
They're fun to own. It was a conversation piece whenever I took it somewhere.
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2005-12-13 19:35
Some of the old photos of the Sousa and Gilmore groups that I've have seen show clarinet players with metal clarinets. Ditto many of the bands that predated the "big band era"; bands like Paul Whiteman's group as an example. The trend was considerably before World War II.
There was once a metal alto clarinet put up for sale on "the" auction site. I've never seen a metal bass clarinet, though.
Finally, a word or two about Western Auto. While born as an auto supply store, the universal spread of their outlets combined with their own distribution network made them something of a "jack of all trades" mini-department store. Much as the Sears & Roebuck Company would sell you just about anything (up to and including a prefabricated house, right out of the catalog), Western Auto took to carrying more and more non-auto related stuff. I used to frequent the one we had in the Concord Village area of Saint Louis since a) they were open on Sundays (in a state still saddled with a few blue laws, getting anything on a Sunday in Missouri was something of an ordeal), and b) they carried plastic model kits.
I've not seen a functional Western Auto store for almost ten years now. No more horns from that source, I guess...
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: stratford
Date: 2005-12-13 19:37
As mentioned, the bulk of metal clarinets on the market are cheap student horns...but there are some good 'pro' instruments out there as well, the Selmers, Conns, Silver Bet, Silver Kings et al.
I play a Silver King regularly, and it is certainly not a toy. I play it outdoors in preference to my Buffet, and I don't believe I lose any playability or tone.
One thing with metals though, you often have to search for a good mouthpiece to suit. The one you play on your wood is not necessarily the one you play on the metal...On my SK, I alternate between a Steelay and one of those (Chinese?) metal and plastic mouthpieces.
Cheers,
Chris
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-12-13 20:04
I overhauled a metal Kohlert (Germany) metal BASS clarinet for the very same Jim Lande, last year. I took the liberty of performing a wind ensemble concert on it before returning it to Jim. It played very much like, and every bit as well as, my wood Kohlert bass (and it looked SO cool!). As a matter of fact, I've just 'acquired' another metal Kohlert bass clarinet on The Internet Site Whose Name......... and am looking forward to restoring and playing it as well.
As far as specific mouthpieces to use on metal clarinets -- nonsense! (IMO) A good mouthpiece is a good mouthpiece is a good mouthpiece and will work on the majority of clarinets, irrespective of material.
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2005-12-13 20:33
David, I would love to see a photo of a metal bass.
My clarinet tech restored an Eb of his and won't part with it. I've offered to buy it from him many times and he just smiles and walks off with that "I've got lots of great toys in my workshop" walk of his. The same attitude is displayed when discussing Kaspar mouthpieces.
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Author: jim lande
Date: 2005-12-14 01:52
Based on auction experience, I can attest that there are a number of very serious collectors out there. Several are building collections with horns I would like to own.
For reference, both the Bettoney 3 star and the American Gloritone were student models. I am pretty sure that both were made in the 1930s, give or take a half decade. I restored an American Gloritone and though that it played reasonably well (with maybe one or two not quite right notes.) However, I was pretty green at restoring horns. One interesting thing: some of the Gloritones have copper bells, rather than brass.
I don't exclusively play metal clarinets. I occasionally play sax.
And FYI, Dave did an amazing amount of work on the Kohlert. I hope his is in better shape to start with. (It should be, he paid less than I did. You know how that works, sometimes.)
I posted a metal clarinet survey last March.
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=173733&t=173733
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Author: Ray
Date: 2005-12-14 03:49
Just to add a little unneeded support to comments by Dave Spiegelthal, Jim Lande, and others who know about top quality metal clarinets, I offer this quote:
"It affords me great pleasure to congratulate you on your success in producing a metal clarinet that more that fills the requirements of the clarinet family.
One of our artists played a number of solos on the metal clarinet, and the tone and intonation were most satisfactory.
I hope to see this metal clarinet as universally used by players as the metal flute is today."
John Philip Sousa
This was a testimonial for the new Conn Metal Armored Clarinet published in the Musical Truth magazine, Spring 1928.
I am lucky enough to own one of these clarinets and it plays very well. The action is lighter and more refined than any I have played, including my R13.
In answer to the original question, I don't use metal clarinets exclusively, but I play the Conn Armored, a Silver King, and a Cundy-Bettoney quite often.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-12-14 14:44
Thanks, Brenda --- it will need some work, but that's what evenings and weekends are for, eh?
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2005-12-14 15:34
And then, of course, you will sell it to me (a confirmed bass clarinet player from my wee sprout years onwards, for what you paid for it...
(The one thing that would put me off of the expense for such an item would be the lack of a peg. I've played bass for so many years off of a peg that I doubt I could return to the tyranny of a neck strap.
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-12-14 19:22
Terry,
Here's what to do to wean yourself off the need for a peg: Play bari sax (preferably the heavier low-A version) regularly, a couple hours a day is good, using just a thin Ray Hyman-type neckstrap (no floor stands, no harnesses, please). After a few months you'll develop a genuine U.S. Marine Corps-spec bull neck and the bass clarinet will feel like a feather with just a strap.
Problem solved.
(or, you could always have a Leblanc peg assembly soldered to the bell, as I've done a number of times. They cost $35 and take 5 minutes to install.)
Nevertheless, I have no plans to sell the metal Kohlert bass --- I greedily want it for myself. You may address me as: Senor Grinch
leader of Centreville's Squawks Of The East Can't-Dance One-Man-Band
info@sorryouasked.com
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-12-14 21:21
Ah Dave, you ARE a character, and Terry also. TKS, OK? GBK?? Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2005-12-15 04:13
I play so much bari these days that I have callus developed not only on the inside of the right thumb, but also on the top of the second joint of the same (from the end of the thumb hook) plus on the left thumb tip's right side (octave key) and bottom left side (from the low A).
I also play my Selmer model 32 (low C bass) off of the thumb alone when needed...none of that whimp two hook neck strap stuff here. With the exception of being a bit limited on the extension notes as far as articulations are concerned, 'tis like playing a soprano.
So, just send the horn along quietly, and no one will get hurt.
I've seen those pegs on the bottom of the newer baris, but it seems to me that the center of gravity on the horn wouldn't match up with the point at which it's suspended.
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
Post Edited (2005-12-15 04:14)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-12-15 09:03
I hope when Yamaha eventually get round to making 875 Custom baris (fingers crossed) they WON'T add a floor peg like Buffet Prestige and the Yanagisawa silver-bodied baris have - I'll stick to my dog-lead sling and trusty old Jiffy stand.
But I still like floor pegs for bass clarinets, basset horns (and contrabassoons).
I see a Conn Cavalier metal clarinet I cleaned up and fully overhauled back in around 1995 is looking rather sorry for itself - it's been left in a shop display cabinet for all that time and the silver has dulled down to an unattractive yellowy-grey colour. And no, I don't work for that shop and haven't done since 1998.
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Author: Shorthand
Date: 2005-12-15 15:12
Actually, I'd recommend going with the Selmer peg assembly instead of the LeBlanc. I own an instrument David restored and I can't keep a rubber tip on a LeBlanc peg for more than 3 weeks without driving a hole through it. I've just given up and use the bare metal.
The Slemers have a little foot and don't suffer from that issue. (They have other issues, yes, but those issues you can work around more easily.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-12-15 16:07
Get a Wolf Rockstop floor protector - it looks like a black high power rubber ball (ie. spherical) with three set screws on a metal collar and has tons of grip on a polished wooden or lino floor.
Buffet and Heckel supply them as standard on their instruments that have floor spikes (Buffet basset horns down to contra-altos, as well as Heckelphones and I'd imagine Heckel contrabassoons have them as well), but they can be bought as an after market accessory from any reputable dealer - probably in the 'cello or double bass department as that's what they're aimed at.
But we benefit as well.
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Author: Gandalfe
Date: 2005-12-15 16:29
Terry Stibal sez: I play so much bari these days that I have callus developed not only on the inside of the right thumb, but also on the top of the second joint of the same (from the end of the thumb hook) plus on the left thumb tip's right side (octave key) and bottom left side (from the low A).
Gandalfe sez: That's interesting. I've played sax (alto, tenor, bari) all my life and never got calluses on my bands. The neckstrap protects the hands I suppose. But this year I picked up the clarinet, or rather, I'm trying to learn to play the Bb soprano clarinet. NOW I have a callus, a big one, on my right hand thumb. Go figure.
Jim and Suzy
Pacifica Big Band
Seattle, Washington
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-12-15 16:57
I'm used to playing bari sax as that's my main instrument, and can play for 2 hours plus without any trouble, but clarinet (as well as oboe and soprano sax) does get tiring on the right thumb and forearm after about 1 hour.
I've been used to playing saxes on slings for a long while now, and my right thumb is only really helping to close the finger buttons, other than that I don't support any of the weight of any saxes with my right thumb (unless standing up for solos) - except soprano, which I find awkward playing with a sling as it's a one-piece straight soprano (Yamaha 62) - the sling gets in the way of my left thumb as I do hold it up at the same angle as an oboe. If I had a curved neck or completely curved soprano then I'd probably use a sling.
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Author: just_wondering
Date: 2005-12-15 21:14
does anyone know about clarinets with "american perfection" etched on it, it also has "C2807" as well. I've seached and can not find out any info on this. I have no idea as to the age, it looks like the last time it was conditioned or repaired??? was in 1963 at "the music shop" in montana. other than that i know nothing else. is anyone able to help in my seach about this clarinet???
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Author: jim lande
Date: 2005-12-16 01:38
Shows up frequently in online auctions. I have never seen one marked either made in U.S. or anwhere else. Probably that means it was made in the U.S. Based on keywork, I am convinced that it is a student model. The serial number you mention doesn't really provide any clues. About 20 different U.S. companies made metal clarinets. Most student models were made between 1925 and 1950. I have not seen convincing evidence of any student model made before 1925, but LeBlanc made some in the 1960s.
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Author: just_wondering
Date: 2005-12-16 03:09
thank-you for that info, it's more than i have found. is there anyway of finding out which company made this clarinet and the year. what it is made of, so that i may be able to clean it up.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-12-16 13:32
Hi J W - Jim, and some other of us cl collectors, has/have given you the best info available AFAIK. Many of the US-made [?named?] metals were made by Cundy-Bettoney, Conn and White-King. There are only 2 US patents I know of, specifically for metals, the most common one is US 1,705,634 [Harry Bettoney, Boston, the"Silva Bet"] and the Haynes "double wall" US 1,119,954. Both are available via the USPTO Databases site, but prob. require the use of a "reader" such as Alterna Tiff [its free] for viewing pages. I'd suggest looking up B's pat [your librarian might be able to copy it !] and comparing key structures and other details, its quite possible it is one of Bet's models. Luck, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Gandalfe
Date: 2005-12-16 15:39
If you are going to fix up a metal clarinet, you might want to get a really good one. Fixing up a student model can be less than satisfying. And it is as expensive as fixing up a professional model.
I'm fixing up a Selmer Paris, five-piece, metal clarinet. I expect the intonation to be stellar. Otherwise, I won't use the instrument. It costs a little more up front to buy a better instrument. But in the long run, I think you'll be happier.
Also, I don't think you can easily get your money back for fixing up a metal clarinet. See Jim Lande's annual metal clarinet surveys. So it's more a labor of love than a money maker activity.
Jim and Suzy
Pacifica Big Band
Seattle, Washington
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2005-12-16 16:36
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
Post Edited (2005-12-16 16:38)
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2005-12-16 16:37
It is fun to show up with one at a rehearsal, excepting only the traditional "old metal wind instrument" smell that all of them seem to have.
I had an old Selmer metal horn back in the 1970s that I had brought up to spec. and I used it now and then for fun. However, it got left behind during a move, and I've got no earthly idea just where it might be these days.
My Conn Artist alto from the 1920's was completely stripped and picked, then plated and reassembled back to full operational condition. You would have thought that such an overhaul would have gotten rid of the problem.
However, there was just enough "old" left in the internal mechanism of the tuner neck to allow a whiff of the "old metal wind instrument" smell to make a comeback. Not enough to get upset, but you do know it is there.
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-12-16 17:20
My new Yamaha Custom tenor smells like a freshly painted room - it's all down to the glue they used in the case.
Some old smells aren't bad, but some are just rank - some B&S (Markneukirchen) instruments really stink, and Lark (Chinese) instruments have a sickly sweet smell.
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Author: jim lande
Date: 2005-12-17 01:04
>> thank-you for that info, it's more than i have found. is there anyway of finding out which company made this clarinet and the year. what it is made of, so that i may be able to clean it up.
You can find out who made it by finding someone with a few hundred student models and then spend a couple months studying the keywork. Eventually, you will piece together which of the 20 some companies PROBABLY made it. Note that there were at least 400 models of metal clarinets -- although some varied only in name.
Exact year: a much harder problem.
Made out of: almost certainly silver plated over brass. There are lots of good, non-abrasive silver cleaners. Nickel is harder to clean. search the archive for suggestions. (A lot of resonator guitars are nickel plated. Presumably those folks hang on a web site and exchange ideas.)
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Author: COdy C
Date: 2005-12-17 03:52
Hello, I have a "Henri Dubois" silver clarinet with a serial number of d2979, and I was wondering if anyone knew anything about it? I've searched everywhere and can't find anything. thank you in advance.
Cody C
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2005-12-17 04:30
COdy C wrote:
> I've searched everywhere and can't find anything.
A search here will bring up the same result (I assume you did a search here) - essentially nothing. They're probably a stencil.
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Author: kylie8320
Date: 2009-05-02 06:03
Jim,
So I am new to this. I haven't played an instrument since my freshman year in college (over 11 years ago). I played sax. BUT, when I was a sophmore in high school I was helping my band teacher clean out her office. In the corner, I found a metal clarinet, quite yucky looking, but intrigueing. I asked her about it. She couldn't remember where she got it but said I could have it if I could get it to play just one note. I took it home, fiddled with it, and sure enough, played 1 note. Anyway, I found it the other day when I was cleaning out some boxes and wondered what something like this might go for. This is what I know about it. Its an American Gloritone, F-M, USA. The serial # is 6010. Thats about all I know. Hope you can help.
Kylie Campbell
620-966-9013
Hutchinson, KS
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