 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2005-12-10 17:47
Most clarinet players start out on an inexpensive instrument. This makes good economic sense, of course. But, money apart, is there any actual advantage in doing so, rather than buying a pro-quality instrument from day 1? Is there anything about an R13/Concerto/Rossi/Eaton/whatever that makes it more difficult to play than a B12/Vito/YCL250? I'm assuming we ignore reeds and mouthpieces, and that the player's hands are large enough to cope.
I ask this from the perspective of a beginner on the trombone. In the trombone world it seems to be accepted as fact that it is much easier to learn on a narrow-bore instrument (typically 0.500"), even though the majority of advanced players prefer a wider-bore instrument (most often 0.547"). I think any differences between clarinets will be much more subtle.
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If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2005-12-10 17:57
Student clarinets are significantly harder to play than professional models in my experience. I recently tried playing on my old plastic Yamaha, as well as a friend's Noblet and another friend's E11. They were all significantly more difficult.
It's a matter of "it's more expensive," "you'll probably break it," and "rite of passage." Given the way I abused my clarinet through high school (some of my friends were worse yet; people twirled them like batons, and I knew one who sat on her flute, the keys went everywhere), it would seem a shame to put a pro horn in my hands at the time.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-12-10 18:23
In theory plastic clarinets should be easier or more responsive to play as they should be more airtight than wooden clarinets, but it's all down to finishing and setting up - if keys or joints wobble or pads don't seat then they won't be very reliable, but can companies making clarinets in the £250-350 price bracket justify spending as much time and attention setting them up as they would to a £2000+ pro model clarinet? Economically it won't make sense, so they only do the minimum to get them working.
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2005-12-10 18:58
I don't think beginner clarinets are easy to play.
And, I think its criminal to force a beginner to fight a bad horn.
Bob Phillips
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Author: GBK
Date: 2005-12-10 19:10
Pro instruments are easier to play than student instruments, that is a given.
More fluid keywork, better manufacturing tolerances, accurate intonation, etc... certainly would make a pro instrument a better learning tool for youngsters.
However, giving a 10 year year old a $2000 clarinet to take back and forth to school is not something most (if not all parents) are comfortable with.
Those beginning students that I have, whose parents also are clarinetists, or those who can afford the purchase of two instruments, let the student take a beginner instrument to school but play the pro instrument at home, under the supervision of a parent.
Even my high school students who own R13's, take their first student (plastic) clarinet to school and only play their good clarinet for concerts...GBK
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2005-12-10 19:17
To be honest, the ONLY advantage I can see starting on a student horn is that if you somehow manage to break it, you didn't lose money.
As Chris mentions, the thing that would probably throw off any beginner is a clarinet that's not set up properly. Nothing's more frustrating than squeaking and squawking due to a bad pad, or having a VERY hard time playing a clarion B (just over the break) due to the C pad not being adjusted correctly or something similar like that.
And even worse than this, is that when you're a beginner, you don't realize that the problems could have a lot to do with the clarinet, and it's probably more common to assume that the problem is completely and totally with YOU because you're "just a beginner".
However, on the flipside, sometimes professional instruments are sold out of adjustment as well (particularly if you just purchase it based on make/model and maybe from a manufacturer that doesn't play-test or properly adjust their clarinets). Just because it's an R13, doesn't mean that somewhere between the factory and your house, a key couldn't get slightly bent, or a pad seated incorrectly, or anything of that sort. And when I first started out, I didn't even COMPREHEND differences in tuning, or subtle dynamic differences, or phrasing, or resistance of certain notes in relation to others. I was happy if the note changed when I lifted or put down a finger. And for THIS, a beginner instrument is perfectly satisfactory.
So David, IMO, I don't think there's any advantage to starting out on a beginner rather than professional instrument. I actually think that there would be an advantage to starting on a pro instrument (provided you care for it and DON'T mistreat it!) because as you grow and your capabilities improve, a good quality professional horn will reflect it better than a low-level student horn, and that might keep you more encouraged as you'll be able to hear your progress more accurately.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-12-10 19:24
The above posts quite well give my feelings, BUT, the ?well-setup? Forte and Ridenour cls might be exceptions to our generalizations [all gen's are false including this one I'm now making !!!]. Some Vito/Bundy cls, perhaps after replacing a pad or so, can be easy players even with somewhat heavier keywork. Just thots, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2005-12-10 20:06
The best compromise re price and performance would probably be to get a mechanically sound student clarinet from a repair person who invested another 50$ to adjust and play-test the instrument. Or, of course, get an expertly overhauled intermediate instrument. (I got myself a Christmas present this way)
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Ben
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2005-12-10 20:40
GBK, you wrote: "Pro instruments are easier to play than student instruments, that is a given."
But it isn't a given. At least, it may very well be true, but it isn't self-evident. It is perfectly possible that student clarinets might be designed in a way that makes them easier to play for a beginner. This is (I am told) true of student trombones: they are built with a smaller bore than that used by the majority of serious players because this makes them easier to play. (I find my small-bore trombone quite difficult enough, I can assure you.)
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If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-12-10 20:44
The Bundy clarinets that were on sale here (UK) back in the '80s all had the .590 bore, but they were right dogs unless they were fettled before they went on sale, and didn't have all that bad a tone considering - but the mouthpieces weren't much cop.
The B12 at the same time was probably the best of the lot and the Yamaha 26II a close second back then.
The cheapest plastic clarinet was either the Sapphire or James&Young - both Taiwanese - the only difference was the TJ one had a matt finish. These weren't brilliant by any standard, the plastic was very low density.
Artleys were also popular, but again weren't set up well, but nothing that couldn't be sorted.
Corton (Amati) were making cheap wooden clarinets with ebonite bells (under various different names), and the wood was poor quality.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2005-12-10 20:52)
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Author: BobD
Date: 2005-12-10 21:08
Yes and No. There are bad "student" level horns and there are good ones. But, there probably are no bad pro level horns. If you get ahold of a properly setup student level horn, with the proper barrel, mouthpiece and reed you will probably get results as good as a pro horn out of the box.
Finding one of those student Gems is an exquisite experience but you might have to sort through( or buy!) an indeterminate number until you find it. My exquisite experience has been with a couple of Vito V40 horns that I would stack up against my best Buffet and LeBlancs. Go figure.
Bob Draznik
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Author: bass9396
Date: 2005-12-10 22:50
I have a Bundy Bass Clarinet to plays like a dream. So it depends on the horn. I agree with the assessment on Brass instruments. Most pro model brass instruments are incredibly unforgiving and have no place in a beginner's hands.
Most pro model woodwind instruments are easier to play but that doesn't make a plastic horn a "bad horn" and when the student is "fighting" the horn they are usually doing something that wasn't taught to them. Kids just try way harder than they need to.
Moreover, if most plastic/beginner horns are "bad" horns, why do superior high school marching bands sound so doggone good? You know those kids are not playing their nice instruments.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2005-12-10 23:58
The Forté clarinet IS one of the only student model clarinets designed specifically to make playing it "user friendly" for beginners.
Among the many improvements: Keys have an ergonomic design, assembly is fool proof, tone holes are undercut and supporting rods are braced.
This design has proved successful as evidenced by the increasing demand for the Forté clarinet for beginning and amateur players...GBK
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Author: Clarinetgirl06
Date: 2005-12-11 00:29
GBK wrote:
Even my high school students who own R13's, take their first student (plastic) clarinet to school and only play their good clarinet for concerts...GBK
Wow! I ALWAYS take my R13 to school to play with and everyone in our section takes our nicest instruments to play with at school. I take my R13 home everyday and it is stored in my band locker (with a lock that I always lock) after band and orchestra. I do have 2 plastic clarinets, and 2 intermediate clarinets, and 1 pro clarinet. I think the R13 is the easiest to play, and I'm 1st chair in a very good public school band. I think my band teacher would flip if she saw me with a plastic clarinet. I only use my intermediate horns for when my R13 is in the shop. 1 is to play, and the other one I like to practice repairing (although it is playable). I don't want my clarinet stolen, but I'm responsible enough to make sure that it won't. Also, kids should get used to tuning the ACTUAL INSTRUMENT they use in concert in an ensemble setting. My R13 has very different tuning than my Yamaha Allegro or my plastic Leblanc Vito. My R13 is rather new and so I'm still getting used to tuning with it in an ensemble setting. It's going to take time, but it's improving.
Any other opinions on this?
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-12-11 00:38
GBK, you didn't write your disclaimer 
Seriously though, he has it dead on about the Forte - it is the best student clarinet on the market in my opinion also.
I would say though for Saxes that the student Yamaha would be easier to play than the upper models for weight alone. Student models don't weight nearly as much.
But for Clarinets, the plastic junkers (I call em all junkers except the forte which I wish were wood also, but o well) they are typically harder due to the quite large tone holes which the makers seem to put on them (compared to the pro models).
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Author: GBK
Date: 2005-12-11 01:08
DavidBlumberg wrote:
> except the forte which I wish were wood also, but o well)
I think the reason that the Forté clarinet was manufactured in ABS plastic, rather than wood was to provide a clarinet which would not only withstand any rough or careless treatment by beginners, but at the same time create a quality instrument which could tolerate outdoor playing under all conditions.
The new Forté C clarinet (coming in the Spring of 2006) will be manufactured in 2 versions: hard rubber and wood.
Disclaimer (since I forgot to add it last time ) - I was one of several professionals who was asked to test both the prototype Forté Bb and C clarinet for additional comments and suggestions. I was happy to participate and received no compensation or remuneration for this service...GBK
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Author: GBK
Date: 2005-12-11 01:20
Clarinetgirl106 wrote:
> I think my band teacher would flip if she saw me with a plastic clarinet.
Having taught high school band, I have seen more than a few quality instruments accidently damaged by the carelessness of other band members.
Therefore, I strongly advise my high school students (with their parent's consent) to leave their R13's at home and only bring them in during concerts and festivals.
Any director who has had a problem with this, I have asked them to speak to me directly.
I've never yet had a band director put up a fuss ...GBK
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Author: bass9396
Date: 2005-12-11 01:35
I would fuss. If the difference between the plastic and the wooden instrument is so great then why would you want the director to rehearse with completely different instruments than the instruments used on the concert?
I find this practice to be totally unacceptable. Essentially, you're asking Directors to sacrifice the ensemble for individuals. How are they to instill any sort of group mentality in their students when kids with nice instruments are allowed to "protect" them while kids who do not have or cannot afford nicer horns have to have their horns "destroyed" at school. Because, all kids are careless and inconsiderate apparently?
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Author: Clarinetgirl06
Date: 2005-12-11 01:54
Well, in my band everyone knows: DON'T GET NEAR THE 1st PART CLARINET SECTION'S CLARINETS! And, we're not stupid enough to get our clarinets into situations with recklessness. If we make a mistake with it, we learn a lesson. It's life, stuff happens: We choose to take the risk. I would rather get a scratch on the wood by a stupid accident, then play my plastic Leblanc Vito all year round. Ick! The horror! I haven't played a plastic clarinet in class since 7th grade. It was horrible to play on the plastic then (only that was a Selmer Bundy, but the Vito isn't a dream either).
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2005-12-11 02:01
Clarinetgirl06 wrote:
> I would rather get a scratch on the
> wood by a stupid accident, then play my plastic Leblanc Vito
> all year round. Ick! The horror!
It's not the material so much, but how it's constructed. I guess as we get older we get less concerned with the cosmetics and more concerned with the performance.
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Author: bass9396
Date: 2005-12-11 02:06
Right on Carrie. I find High School students to be well put-together individuals who can follow simple rules like "stay away from these nice Clarinets".
Folks such as GBK think that b/c you're in school you're irresponsible, stupid, misguided, have no common sense, etc. I happen to think it's quite the opposite. Things happen, you're right. And I too, would rather take the risk than play my back up horn all year, whilst wasting my Director's time as I force him to listen to my back-up horn.
I'll bet you anything your school band plays well because your director has high expectations of his group, doesn't settle, and doesn't allow himself to be bullied by selfish private instructors.
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Author: Clarinetgirl06
Date: 2005-12-11 02:19
I wouldn't go as far as saying that GBK is a selfish private instructor. I see where he's coming from, but I think he's too protective. We should be trusted enough to play one 55 minute rehearsal everyday. I mean, come on, we are playing about 45 of those 55 minutes, and the 10 minutes I'm not playing I either have it across my lap or I'm fingering the parts I'm having trouble with silently while the other sections are rehearsing. I don't think 55 minutes is too long a time to keep an instrument safe.
My band director expects great tuning, high levels of musicianship, and overall superior technique. We're playing for the State Music Convention in January and you could bet that she wants us rehearsing on the best instruments we can find.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2005-12-11 02:31
I've seen far too many $2000 + instruments get badly damaged by a carelessly
moved music stand or a fellow student rushing to get somewhere.
Parents were NOT happy about it.
Administration has always backed the parents on their decision to have their child use their secondary horn.
Let's be real here - the band isn't going to suffer.
If a student has been taught to play with proper intonation and musicianship, those habits transfer to whatever instrument they are using.
My first teaching gig was in a poor inner city school district. We had high school clarinetists playing Bundys who not only held their own with the more affluent kids from other schools, but frequently outscored them in competitions...GBK
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Author: bass9396
Date: 2005-12-11 02:47
The Band is a product of ALL of its parts. It is much greater than the individual and does suffer when liberties are taken. Period.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2005-12-11 04:27
The old debate about social democracy vs. liberal democracy.... Well, I'm a socialist but on this issue I'm going with the liberal. I went to a music highschool, and the band director (if you could call him that) would never even think of telling me what clarinet to bring. So, I think it is the student and parents' decision which clarinet to bring....
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Author: ClariBone
Date: 2005-12-11 06:00
Speaking about the trombone for a while. The smaller bore is easier for beginners to blow because it isn't as big as the pro horns. It doesn't take as much air which is easier on the little kids. With clarinets I don't see much of a difference. I think if they are responsible enough to care for a nice wooden one, then by all means let them play it.
Clayton
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2005-12-11 14:26
Bass9396,
Hey man, you seem to have some issues as evidenced by your seemingly short fuse on several threads. What's up? You sound pretty angry. While your ideals are admirable, your delivery needs some polishing.
Let's talk privately (I would be sending you an email but your address is not in your profile). So send me an email so you will not have to vent in public. It's not very pretty and quite un-professional.
We are a friendly group and would surely enjoy your insights but your fervor is getting in the way.
HRL
Post Edited (2005-12-11 15:59)
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-12-11 15:42
Bass, kids do stupid and careless things all the time - it's just how it is and a part of growing up.
I tell my students to practice at school with their plastic horn and then for the dress rehearsal bring the better instrument.
That way it won't get stolen, damaged, etc nearly as likely.
It's just how it is................
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Author: BobD
Date: 2005-12-11 16:21
David....where are you? And why the heck do you want to play trombone?
Ah, yes, the glissandos.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-12-11 16:56
Plastic clarinets can sound good or bad depending on the player. I do use a plastic Yamaha and can get just as good a sound out of it than I can with my Selmers, though it doesn't have the same depth of sound it still makes a good sound.
You only get out of it what you put into it. Even Chinese clarinets can sound good in the hands of a good player, though they will not choose them as their clarinets of choice.
There are also pro model clarinets (and oboes) in plastic and composite materials as well that are respected by many pro players, so plastic isn't confined to student instruments. The difference being the quality of workmanship and finishing - pro level instruments will be made in the same way as wooden ones, in student models the bodies are moulded and the keys are often cast in single pieces, but the latter can be true with pro clarinets as well.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2005-12-11 17:16)
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Author: bass9396
Date: 2005-12-11 18:14
Hank,
You have confused anger with the ability to be pointedly honest. It's funny that when people question my ability, integrity or moral character you're not jumping to my defense. I guess I'm the only snot on this board.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2005-12-11 19:45
Er...being pointedly honest can be conveyed in various ways. Yours was one possibly way, but I fear you were selling yourself below value.
I can't judge whether or not you are a snot (because I don't know you good enough for such a judgement), but I can tell when you are coming across like be one. A well-meant but badly worded statement often goes unheard, simply because people shrug and proceed to the next interesting topic. That won't serve anyone and in the end is just ill-spent time.
I'd appreciate if you could spice up your pointedly honest statements with some meat around the bone. Then I might be able to understand what's behind a snotty (your words, not mine) assertion.
These were my two cents.
--
Ben
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Author: bass9396
Date: 2005-12-11 20:12
You're exactly right, you don't know me very well, and that's ok. I think it would be best to take my statements from the stance that "this guy knows what he's talking about, but he doens't know everything and he knows that too." I'm basically shrugging my shoulders when I make half the comments I make, because I could be right, or wrong, or what works for me doesn't work for other people. My way is NOT the only way. Some people think differently in reference to their own philosophies. I can't do anything about that.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2005-12-11 20:25
> "this guy knows what he's talking about, but he doens't know everything
> and he knows that too."
"This guy knows what he's talking about, but why the heck wouldn't he want to share it?"
--
Ben
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Author: Firebird
Date: 2005-12-12 00:56
Perhaps this only applies for clarinets? I played Buffet C12, E11, R13 and RC Prestige. And without doubt, the pro instruments are indeed easier to play; less resistance.
But I heard that for French Horns, the pro instruments are more difficult to play than the student models, like for instance a Holton vs a Alexander.
Chan
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Author: sylvangale
Date: 2005-12-12 02:44
In highschool people are twirling instruments, grabbing at things they shouldn't, and walking where they shouldn't.
You should have seen the honking dent that was put into my flute in highshool when someone ran into it. It was so severe that the repair stripped off the plating in that area.
Had this flute been a $2000 professional flute that I was forced to bring against my will I would expect no less than the replacement of the flute at full cost from the responsible person, the director, or the school.
If you force a student to bring in a professional instrument and it is damaged due to someone else's negligence. The person enforcing such an imbecilic requirement should be responsible for getting the instrument replaced.
...in my jr. high school the band director himself threw his own trumpet across the room into a wall in a fit of anger.
No one should be forced to put their expensive instruments in precarious situations.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-12-12 03:00
It shouldn't ever be forced either way - only suggested and if somebody damages another's instrument, it's the injuring party (parents) who should have to pay for the damage.
It has nothing to do with the school unless the band director throws the instrument in a "fit of rage"
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2005-12-12 03:39
Some things, like appallingly designed Buescher side key springs, make the instrument fight the player, but after decades of adjusting instruments, I am convinced that a well-adjusted plastic Yamaha is just as easy to play in the first thee odd octaves, as a well-adjusted pro instrument.
The point is, how often is this adjustment effort put into a student instrument, and how often is the evaluator divorced from the influence of his preconceived notions.
I knew an accomplished player/teacher who thought plastic Yamahas played equally well as most pro instruments (after proper setting-up), until he was offered commission for selling a certain range of timber instruments. Hmm!
Just my opinion, and it seems one shared somewhat by conscientious, able technicians.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-12-12 03:46
I don't believe that a single plastic (or synthetic material for that matter) can hold a candle to a great professional wooden one.
And a player who thinks that a plastic one sounds as good, is deluding themselves as far as I'm concerned.
Setup or not.
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Author: BassClarinetGirl
Date: 2005-12-12 04:24
I believe that students should choose if they want to bring their "good" instruments to band. I play my 9* in band every day, but that is my choice. I play in a band where the next nicest clarinet is a Buffet B-12. Most clarinetists in my band don't have pro instruments, and they won't even think about playing in college. I play my good clarinet because playing my other clarinets is almost headache compared my 9*, it plays so nicely, even though they all play well, (I have a Yamaha YCL-26 and a Vito Millenium, plus a wooden Selmer Signet availiable that I can use) I only use the plastics for outdoor situations and the Signet for indoor pep band- I can't put a lyre over the articulated C#!
Anyways, my point is that I choose to play my nice clarinet because it is easier for me not to have to adjust between Bb clarinet, when I am constantly having to adjust between Bb, Eb, Bass, Alto, Tenor Sax, Oboe.... It takes one less factor out of that equation. However, when I am at school, I make sure that it is with me at all times when I'm not in my chair playing it. Its a personal choice, I don't think I'd like my director telling me that I had to use a secondary clarinet all the time, but I also would disagree with a director who made everyone bring their professional instruments to every rehearsal. Unless the student is visibly careless with their instrument, that is. Then I would see a point in asking them not to bring a very nice instrument every day, out of concern that something bad might happen the instrument.
BCG
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2005-12-12 10:25
A few things in favour of plastic ;-D
1.) Well, I broke my first instrument a couple of times - don't know about you lot! That's what happens when you're like, nine - you drop bits!
2.) Wooden instruments require a little TLC... you gotta swab. The instrument moves with the weather and you've got to be aware of it.
3.) You won't know what you want when you're a beginner - why spend x thousand on an expensive Buffet if you're only going to choose an expensive Selmer later (for example)?
4.) After playing a cheap instrument for a while, you'll really respect that 'real' instrument when you finally get it :-)
Question:
Do you recommend new plastic or second-hand wood for a new player? My teacher reckoned that there was too much risk in wood unless you knew exactly what you were doing. What do you guys reckon?
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-12-12 12:02
--------------------------
Do you recommend new plastic or second-hand wood for a new player? My teacher reckoned that there was too much risk in wood unless you knew exactly what you were doing. What do you guys reckon?
---------------------------
Remember - Wood can be fixed. Cracks can be pinned, glued, etc and fixed. A crack isn't the end of the world whatsoever.
Still wouldn't march with a wooden clarinet at all though.
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Author: Anna
Date: 2005-12-12 14:20
Here's my two cents.
I'm an adult who plays in an amateur community orchestra and I prefer to play a plastic instrument because I don't want the responsibility of a wooden clarinet. I don't practice enough nor do I play enough to justify the expense of a nice pro instrument (or the fears of cracking.) I will admit that I have thought about it occassionally.
Also on the "other" topic in this thread.
I believe the saying is that 90% of all communication is NON-verbal.
All we have on forums like this and emails is words. Meaning I can't see your face or body for the subtle language body and facial language, nor can I hear your tone of voice for what that tells me.
You may type something that, to you, seems innocent but because you aren't seen or heard someone else may take great offence. We should all take great care in what we write (you can say the same thing but with different words) as we may form incorrect impressions of people on this forum.
After all, we all have bad posts every now and then. They're just like bad days.
Anna
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