 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: contragirl
Date: 2005-12-05 20:02
Funny I bring this up after so long.
Ok, so on clarinet, I had to rebuild my embouchure since HS, and about a couple years ago, I got the point that I understood what my teacher was trying to tell me. Flat chin, tongue position, etc.
Now how does this apply to bass clarinet? I have a problem crumpling up my chin when I play bass, and I think this makes my upper register suffer (usually it doesn't come out above altissimo G. I think the reason I do this is so that I have more lip on the reed and since it is a bigger reed than Bb, the chin doesn't stay flat as to allow my lip to do so. And I havea thin bottom lip, so if I try to flatten my chin, I bite through my lip and it deadens the reed's vibration. :( I by no means chomp down on my mpc like you would think (bass cl has a looser embouchure) but it seems like my lack of bottom lip has made my bass emb. suck!
I dunno if I really explained that well, but I could use any help I can get. lol.
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2005-12-05 21:28
The bass embouchure is exactly the same as the soprano embouchure. I don't change anything in that respect.
(I also don't think a thin lower lip will really impair you)
Clarinetist keep their chin flat for many reasons. The two that are the most important to me:
1.) Keeping the chin flat makes the lower lip a pillow that allows the reed to vibrate fully.
2.) Keeping the chin flat reduces the amount of lip on the reed: too much lip on reed inhibits vibration!
The fact that the reed is bigger should not change your embouchure or tongue position.
If you have not been able to accomplish this on bass, then you will have problems with the funciton and clarity of the clarion and altissimo. If you can do this on soprano, then you should be able to affect a quick change on the bass.
If you really find that your lower lip is thin, perhaps you should try to pucker a little bit? There are those you explain the proper embouchure as puckering and smiling at the same time. (I'm not one!)
Good luck!
James Tobin
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-12-05 21:35
Pretty much the same as soprano clarinet, but of course it's larger, with more of an oval shape and less "smile" (that is, the corners of the lips don't pull upwards as much). The most important difference is really the size of the oral cavity and throat, you have to open these way up. My analogy is to think of the bass clarinet embouchure as a large, oval ring of steel around the mouthpiece -- very firm in the circumferential direction (around the rim) but NOT clamping at all (towards the center, in the radial direction).
Keep in mind that I've never taught a student in my life so I really don't know how to describe this.........
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Author: bass9396
Date: 2005-12-05 22:07
The Bass Clarinet embouchure is most comparable to a Saxophone embouchure. With such a big piece of wood vibrating I find the use of the bottom lip helpful in controlling timbre, volume, extreme altissimo, multiple articulation, etc.
Just relax.....the Bass Clarinet is way less complicated than it looks.
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2005-12-05 23:00
The lower lip contributes in this way regardless of whether you play clarinet or saxophone.
The size of the reed must be allowed for, but does grossly alter the concept. I don't radically change my embouchure for soprano, bass, or the efeer.
What is the definition of a sax versus a clarinet embouchure? (as long as we're discussing it?)
The original question was: how does a soprano clarinet embouchure apply to playing the bass?
It applies exactly with the allowances well described by Mr. Spiegelthal.
James Tobin
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-12-06 00:57
Thanks, James, but "Mr. Spiegelthal" was my Dad ![[grin]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie5.gif) .
My friends call me "Dave" (or "hey you", or late for dinner, or....)
Reminds me of the comedian whose line was "you can call me Ray, or you can call me Jay, or............"
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2005-12-06 02:11
What does "Spiegelthal" mean, anyway? Spiegel is mirror in German, but with "-hal" on the end...I'm just not sure. Dave!
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-12-06 03:06
"spiegel" = "mirror" and "thal" = "valley". For example, one fairly common name is Rosenthal (= "rose valley").
I have this mental image of a beautiful, mirror-smooth lake in a quiet valley surrounded by mountains............then, the idyllic quiet is shattered by the sound of........
A SHRIEKING OUT-OF-TUNE CLARINET!!!!!! ARRRRRGGGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!
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Author: Low_Reed
Date: 2005-12-06 03:57
"Open the pod bay doors, HAL."
"I'm afraid I can't do that, Dave."
That was too rich a cultural reference non sequitur to pass up!
And now, before someone says to me
"Fermez la bouche",
I'll wander back on (toward?) topic with this question:
Are there any clarinets (bass or otherwise) on the soundtrack to "2001: A Space Odyssey"?
Bruce
**Music is the river of the world!**
-- inspired by Tom Waits and a world full of music makers
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2005-12-06 10:47
The thing I found with bass is that it's very much a whole-body experience. Playing bass most of all taught me 'support'.
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Author: archer1960
Date: 2005-12-06 11:59
"Are there any clarinets (bass or otherwise) on the soundtrack to "2001: A Space Odyssey"?"
I don't know if they are there on the original, but in high school we played that and the arrangement we did had clarinet parts.
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Author: Chetclarinet
Date: 2005-12-06 14:24
I play the bass clarinet with an relaxed clarinet embouchure, more reed past the lower lip, tongue down the reed , not on the tip(to encourage a large amount of reed inserted in the mouth) and with a "Warmer" air blow that is focused in the center of the mouth area, not at the front. I think the bass clarinet needs the warmer and deeper air focus to maintain control of a reed that is larger and has more distance from the mouthpiece tip. Check to see that the lower lip is touching the reed where the reed is on the table, not away from it. I also move the bass clarinet close to the body, and tilt the neck angle a bit forward to insure the proper angle for the mouthpiece and reed. I use a shallow anchor tongue(tongue tip actually touches the top area of the lower lip) with the tongue touching the reed back behind the tip a bit.
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Author: bass9396
Date: 2005-12-06 16:40
The soprano embouchure in no way relates to the bass embouchure.....that's the only way in which the two instruments are different, in my opinion. Then again, I use a bass embouchure on soprano, so who knows.
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2005-12-06 17:05
Why would you use a different embouchure to play the same instrument?
If the embouchure is "the only" way you find them to be different, then haven't you found the evidence to disprove your own logic?
You then subsequetnly state that you use the wrong embouchure on soprano, so how much credence should we be lending this opinion anyway?
James Tobin
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-12-06 17:45
Point well taken J T, [what does Gnothi Seauton, signify, mean, name?, please, I have the Scot name Seaton in my ancestry !]. However, I tend toward Chetc l's analysis as the way I play, somewhat diff from my sop. emb., but have no conflicts I can recognise. Interesting, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: bass9396
Date: 2005-12-06 21:46
Besides the fact that I play Bass well, I play Soprano well, but that's not the point. There is no correct embouchure for any of these instruments. Some people use double lip, some people have air pockets in their embouchure, everybody's different, and that's ok.
I find it interesting that you insinuate that I have no idea what I'm talking about. You don't know me and I don't know you. Why should you care that much? I find it to be funny.
I'm simply suggesting an embouchure and offering my opinion. For example, I don't find a "standard" soprano embouchure to work for me. I've worked around it to achieve the purpose of the embouchure without having every facet of the embouchure going. That's just me.
BTW - I don't think you're 100% wrong, I just think the only difference between high and low clarinets is the embouchure. So if I offended you, sorry, but I didn't know I couldn't have a different opinion from everyone else :o)
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2005-12-07 03:58
Ok. Let's take some wood off the fire.
The third line of my previous post could be taken to be awfully snide. I apologise for its tenor. It is not my intention to make a personal attack against anyone.
No one who didn't care would be posting on this list. You don't find it interesting that I have "insinuated", you are implying that my character is low.
Agreed, that there are hundreds of ways to play any instrument. The ultimate judge of succes is the final product. Generally speaking, some methods have become more common because they are more commonly successfull.
Clarnibass began this thread by asking does the soprano embouchure apply to bass? And could her problems in the altissimo of her bass be attributed to the fact that she has not applied the soprano embouchure succesfully to her bass playing?
IF she plays successfully in the altissimo of her soprano with the embouchure that she has spent time learning (which no one has asked her yet), then the answer is to both questions is yes!
The question isn't how do any of us play soprano vs. bass, but does the way you play soprano apply to bass and can it solve clarnibass' problem?
The answer is yes and you said it yourself:
"Then again, I use a bass embouchure on soprano, so who knows...Besides the fact that I play Bass well, I play Soprano well"
So clarnibass SHOULD apply her soprano embouchure to bass.
James Tobin
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: graham
Date: 2005-12-07 13:08
I also do not subscribe to the idea that there is a different approach, or that the bass embouchure is necessarily slacker. In fact you could have a set up on a clarinet that required a slacker embouchure than the set up you might have on bass.
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Author: contragirl
Date: 2005-12-07 18:58
Let me also point out that I have been playing bass clarinet for 7 years, contralto for 11 yrs, and Bb for 13 years. :P
I am good on bass (if I dont say so myself) but I'm not sure if it my mouthpiece that causes my problems, or my embouchure. I have had issues with embouchure in general, and I had been rebuilding my embouchure and tonguing up until 3 yrs ago when I finally "got it." After my teacher in HS pointed out I anchor tonguing ( I guess from the contra playing), I had to almost relearn my technique. The main problem I was having until a few years ago was the tonguing speed. Now i think I have it pretty well.
But I was wondering if maybe some of my altissimo issues were emb related. Could it be the position of the neck/mpc that effects that maybe? That would make my chin want to crumple? Cuz the bass necks I play on do not put the mpc at an upright angle like Bb, but like a contra, flat pepindicular angle to the floor. Which would make sense why my lip feels like it is too thin when I play.
thank!
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Author: contragirl
Date: 2005-12-07 19:02
Also, a few years ago, Harry Sparnay came to my school and did a master class. He pointed out that the bass clarinet is a completely different animal than Bb. The embouchure is drastically different than Bb, Eb, Alto, etc. It's the same instrument in family and fingerings, but not by physical properties. I have a lot of awesome clarinet player friends that can't even play a low clarinet. *shrug*
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-12-07 19:48
CG -- why not get in touch with Larry Bocaner and take a lesson or two, if you think your embouchure might benefit from a professional opinion in 'real-time'? We on the BB can offer all the opinions in the world from the comfort of our computers, but we can't see what you're doing or not doing....
DS (who was playing bass clarinet before you were even born  )
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Author: lowclarinetman
Date: 2005-12-07 20:08
I am a student of Henri Bok and a professional clarinet player. In a normal week, I find myself playing and teaching Eb clarinet, soprano clarinets, bass clarinet, alto saxophone and tenor saxophone. The only one of these instruments that, for me is a wildly different beast is tenor sax.(and that is probably because it is the newest addition to my arsenal.)
I do not drastical move my embouchure from a low c on bass to an A above double F(I can go higher but that is as high as I feel comfortable going, gets real dodgey above that.. I know there is a C up there somewhere but I'm happy getting where i get.) Same on the little clarinets.(except I only can do to a D or E above high C regularly... no real point to play much higher, just had to play the Ginistara Variations Concertantes this season and it has a DOUBLE HIGH C# grrrrr)
Now do I change my embouchure when moving between insturments. I try my best not to. Which is to say there might be slight compensations I make subconsiously when flipping around instruments. But my general idea is this:
The embouchure is only there to focus air into the instrument and give the reed a place to vibrate and once it achieves its goal of doing this it should move as little as possible.
To address the real point of this problem playing above altissimo G on bass I will have to respond later because I have to go teach for the next 5 hours of my life.
Ciao
Bob hoit
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