 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: michael
Date: 2000-04-07 11:02
In a piece my band is playing, there is a group of seven sixteenth notes tied together (slurred) that have to be played on the fouth beat (4/4 time.) In my head I have been counting it as 4 notes played on the downbeat and the remaining 3 on the upbeat. I know it all goes by so fast that it may not matter, but I need to get some rhythm to it or I'll miss it.
I don't just want to run them all together. Is there a "formal" way that I should be counting these notes? Thanks. Michael
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Author: Dee
Date: 2000-04-07 12:08
These really need to be spaced so that they are even if they are just marked as seven notes within the beat.
How do you count it? Well I don't really know. There's two different approaches that work for me. If the music is not too fast, I just go {1 2 3 4 5 6 7} all within the beat.
If it is fast, I first practice slow to get the feel of the even spacing and then gradually speed it up. At a certain point, I quit trying to count it and just play the seven notes within the beat relying on the previous practice to keep it even.
Mental visualization helps too. When I drop the counting, I think in terms of starting the first note and then "landing" on the next beat at the right time and note. It helps keep it in tempo if I consider the next beat as the target note that can not be reached too soon or too late.
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Author: Meri
Date: 2000-04-07 13:32
The way you are doing the 16th-note septuplet is one of two common ways of doing it. A septuplet can either be played 4 +3 or 3 + 4--I usually determine which is more suitable by the context.
You could also think of the 16th-note septuplet as being a set of eight 32nd's, minus one note in the same time frame.
Meri
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2000-04-07 14:57
Before the next rehersal, make sure that you have at least 200 yards to walk to the rehersal-hall. For every step you take think, ni-co-lo-pa-ga-ni-ni, repeatedly in a nice even rhythmical way to get it into your bloadstream. You can never fail again.
(Nicolo Paganini, 1782-1840, italian violinist & composer.)
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Author: Royce
Date: 2000-04-07 17:16
Great suggestion, Alphie! Reminded me of the story about the Ballet Russe dancers who were having trouble with the quintuple meter in Ravel's Daphnis & Chloe. They supposedly chanted "ser-gei-diagh-i-lev, ser-gei-diagh-i-lev"...
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2000-04-07 18:53
Don Berger wrote:
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In dance band terminology, I'd call it a "rip" in a fast tempo! Have we another PANDA loose here? Don
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Oh no, no Panda. Take a look at piano music - this type of combination (16ths against a triplet, 7 notes against 2 eigths, etc.) is common once you get into the upper medium difficulty levels (Chopin Nocturnes & beyond). They have to be evenly counted or the notes in the second voice won't sound right. 3 +4 or 4 +3 won't work! You'll end up rushing the 4 either way. The middle note <b>must</b> be precise or our note, which should sound precisely between two notes played by another instrument, will be off-time - and very prominently so! The "Paganini" syllables mentioned by Alphie above are really useful to getting the counting even.
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2000-04-07 22:32
As they have said.
Also, if this helps: It always helps me to think of these cases where an uneven number of notes is played on one count, i.e.,five notes on a beat, or seven; as one even number group of notes on one side of the downbeat, one note PRECISELY at the downbeat, and the other group of even number notes on the other side, on the upbeat. So in a group of seven you have three notes on the way to the downbeat, one at the downbeat and three notes on the upbeat. Like so:
. . . . . .
.
Hope that helps.
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2000-04-07 22:34
The magic of html screwed up the placement of dots in my previous post, but hopefully you got the picture.
T
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Author: michael
Date: 2000-04-07 22:48
Dee wrote:
These really need to be spaced so that they are even if they are just marked as seven notes within the beat. ...<snip>...
It helps keep it in tempo if I consider the next beat as the target note that can not be reached too soon or too late.
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Thanks Dee, I have tried keeping the next beat as my target and that does seem to help. I guess I was thinking of the rhythm incorrectly since I was grouping the notes. I'll just keep working on it.
Alphie's suggestion of using the composer's name as a mental trick to keep the notes even is a good idea. Thanks everyone. Michael
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Author: Willie
Date: 2000-04-08 00:43
If you can't remmember the composers name, you might try saying "this-is-ve-ry-di-fi-cult" smoothly and evenly to get the rythm down. Count the whole measure out orally,but slowly, using this or the composers name, for the septuplet, then increase the tempo. When you think you have the rythm down orally, try playing it.
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Author: Dee
Date: 2000-04-08 01:18
Willie wrote:
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If you can't remmember the composers name, you might try saying "this-is-ve-ry-di-fi-cult" smoothly and evenly to get the rythm down. Count the whole measure out orally,but slowly, using this or the composers name, for the septuplet, then increase the tempo. When you think you have the rythm down orally, try playing it.
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Word of caution. Find some other three syllable word to use instead of "difficult." You don't want to get this idea planted in your subconcious even by accident.
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Author: Willie
Date: 2000-04-08 01:29
Good point Dee. I use for myself as its easy for me to remmember and easy for me to say (I have a slight speach impediment), but I do agree with you.
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Author: michael
Date: 2000-04-08 04:23
This discussion has been very helpful. Right now
I am very dependent on my foot for keeping time.
I don't know if this is bad or not but sometimes
when we are playing cut time (still have trouble with
this) I'll tap out in 4 and boy does my foot get tired.
I was trying to figure out where the
7 notes would go in relation to my foot movement; Now at least I know that I just have to make them even and smooth
by figuring some "trick" of syllables. thanks. Michael
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2000-04-08 07:23
Simple playing-exercices like using the C-major scale is very useful. A scale has 7 notes. Play: C-d-e-f-g-a-b-C-b-a-g-f-e-d-C.......over and over again. Than play it in two octaves and three. For quintuplets you can play: C-d-e-f-g-D-e-f-g-d-E-f-g-a-b- and so on. To play it evenly, always use easy scales and easy fingerings.
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Author: Christie
Date: 2000-04-15 19:24
Did you try thinking of a seven syllable word that you can say in your head as you play? If you just make one up
(de-frag-men-ta-tion-al-ist) , you should find that it makes the notes fit. "University" works well for quintuplets. A-symmetrical meter is difficult because you really do want to keep the pulse even and you are right for asking how to obtain this effect. There are plenty more pieces where you will encounter this counting challenge. have you played any Brahms?
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Author: michael
Date: 2000-04-16 13:59
Christie wrote:
Did you try thinking of a seven syllable word that you can say in your head as you play? If you just make one up
(de-frag-men-ta-tion-al-ist) , you should find that it makes the notes fit. "University" works well for quintuplets. A-symmetrical meter is difficult because you really do want to keep the pulse even and you are right for asking how to obtain this effect. There are plenty more pieces where you will encounter this counting challenge. have you played any Brahms?
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Hi Christie, I'm not sure if this question was for me. Unless there are some passages of Brahms in my practice
books, I haven't intentionally played any. I'm still very early in the re-learning curve; that's why I have been asking such silly questions. Michael
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