 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2005-12-04 14:26
Hi
That bass clarinet neck thread got pretty long so I thougt I'll let it fade and open a new one eventhough it's a very related subject.
I assumed everything was fine with my register mechanism on my Buffet bass because it was just repaired a month ago, and it felt ok until today. Suddenly in the middle of class today it stopped working.
What happens is the upper register (the one conntected to the neck) doesn't open fast enough, or even opens at all. It's very unstable, sometimes will work and sometiems won't.
I think some of the people on the board are repair instruments (for example I think Chris P. is). Is anyone familiar with the newer Buffet bass clarinets?
The reason I ask is I don't trust 100% percent on any clarinet repairman in my country (the only trustworthy one went back to Bulgaria). But it looks like I will have to go to one of them anyway. If I post pictures and explain the problem does anyone think they can maybe understand what the problem is or at least what it might be?
I'll feel much better knowing a little in advance about it so they can't just do whatever they want.
Thanks very much.
Post Edited (2005-12-05 11:26)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-12-04 14:35
I can only be certain by having your bass with me, but check none of the adjusting screws (or the linkages) haven't lost their teflon or cork tips.
I've had trouble with my speaker mechanism in the past as well - it still isn't as perfect as I'd like it to be, but it works.
Add a drop of thin oil to each part of the rocker mechanism to see if this makes things work faster.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2005-12-04 14:47
I'll post pictures later and maybe it will somehow help to get me an idea of the problem. Even if not, it's worth trying.
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Author: William
Date: 2005-12-04 15:00
Just a "shot in the dark", but do you swab your neck thoroughly each time after playing?? If you don't, the pad might become sticky fail to open (the G# pad on saxophone is famous for this because most sax players do not swab after playing) I use a regular clarinet swab for my bass clarinet (low C Buffett) neck and always swab twice (once each way) after playing, even if only a few minutes. Perhaps, because of this, I have never experianced any maifunction of the register mechanizm. In any case, it is a good idea to keep your neck as clean as possible--give it a try and see if it helps.
And don't fail to swab the rest of your instrument just as you would a regular soprano clarinet. For this, I use cloth swab with a long cord instead of the wire brush type that came with the instrument.
(and yes, I also swab my saxophones after each gig, including the necks--and my sax pads never stick)
Post Edited (2005-12-04 15:11)
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2005-12-04 17:18
Is it the pad sticking to the vent, or binding in the axle?
If it's stickiness, the standard cure (at least in the U.S.) is to put a new dollar bill between the pad and the vent, press on the key firmly but not too hard, and pull the bill out. Repeat 2 or 3 times. It has just enough abrasiveness to clean any gunk off. You could also use a strip of brown paper torn from a paper bag.
On my Buffet bass (which is the model before the current one), the register key holds down a see-saw lever, which in turn holds down the neck key. This is a dreadful design, where the register key spring has to overcome the see-saw spring, which frees the neck key spring to close the key. Then, when you press the register key, the see-saw lever spring has to overcome the neck vent spring to open the vent. This means three separate spring strengths, that have to be perfectly balanced.
This is why the older Buffet bass register mechanism boes out of adjustment so easily and often. The current models have eliminated the problem. Now if they only sounded as good as the old ones....
It's entirely possible that your mechanism has gone out of adjustment, even after only a month. All it takes is one knock. The adjustment is complicated enough that you really need to go to a professional repair shop.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-12-04 17:56
With Chris, William and Ken [and likely others] giving you excellent advice and suggesting trouble-possibilities, and with my DRK experience being only on Selmer and Pedler B C's, I'll also view your mechanisms, and perhaps be able to help as well. Yes, clean both of the reg. pads, I usually use a handkerchief, and as Ken said, drag it thru and inspect the pads for breakage-wear. Also some of my mech's have bits of cork on the mating parts for fitting and for silencing, and missing a cork might be critical to proper operations. Its great when they work, Good Luck, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2005-12-05 05:41
Thank you very much for all replies.
It is definitely not the pad sticking. I spoke with some people and found another repairman I haven't tried yet so I will try him and see.
Thanks again.
Edit: I just examined my bass and found the problem. When I hold the register key, and the D/G key (third ring on the right hand) the upper register hole is closed and the side register hole is open. I try to close the side register by simply pushing the key and in the beginning there is a slight resistance like it is stuck, then after the stuck point it moves freely. Sometimes the key can't get over the resistance and just doesn't close at all, and of course the upper register doesn't open then (not when pushing with my hand, but when trying to play).
I'll examine each connection better to see if I can find the exact place of the problem, and I'll post a picture in a few minutes.
Post Edited (2005-12-05 06:14)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2005-12-05 11:14
Attachment: ProblemScrew.jpg (41k)
OK found the main problem.
In the picture attached the screw I circled doesn't turn freely in his sleeve. It turns freely most of the way and then feels a little stuck in one place. It still turns but not freely. I'll see what the repairman says.
I don't think that is the problem with the air sound though since even if I hold it open the air sound is still there and it isn't on another instrument. I'll know better after the repair.
I read that instresting post by HAT and that definitely makes me think something is wrong since he says the clarion notes on the Buffet are superb.
Thanks again.
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2005-12-05 12:18
Ik! Sounds like it's bent... not sure how you'd fix that. Suitable lubrication could just do the trick.
Bass mechanics... horrible. All the linkages are just so long and loose. And if they're not all spot-on you won't get anything above a clarion 'E' out of the thing. I feel someone should look into a radical re-design.
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Author: Shorthand
Date: 2005-12-05 14:00
If that shaft is binding, its probably that the posts are sqeezing it
Either because of:
- Weather changes shrinking the instrument a little.
- (I think this one more likely because it only binds after some rotation) The posts have been pulled out of alignment a little because of landing in the case, sitting on a chair, whatever.
Bore oiling with a good bore oil would actually start to adress the first, but neither is a big challenge for a good repair tech.
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2005-12-05 14:32
My crappy tenor sax had the binding register key problem in a similar mechanism. It also cropped up after playing ok for a few weeks.
I fixed it by removing the pivot screw, pinching very fine sandpaper around it and twisting. Do that enough to just pick up some metal filings on the sandpaper. Then reassemble the mechanism and test.
Repeat until it works.
In my case, it bound up again in a couple of days, and I had to repeat the "treatment." Finally, it worked ok. (but the rest of the keys didn't; and the piece is history).
Bob Phillips
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2005-12-05 14:50
> and the piece is history
I wonder what happens to instruments that are history...can you imagine a sax in the shredder, torn to pieces with shrieking sounds? A clarinet cosily crackling in the fireplace?
...I'm evil, I know.
--
Ben
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2005-12-06 00:34
No, my Antiqua tenor is probably in the hands of some poor student again. It was a rental and recalcitrant. I had it to a tech three times and did the register key mechanism myself.
I returned it to Hoffman in Spokane, WA when I got my Buffet back from a rebuild and realized that it just is not worth the trouble to fight a POS instrument.
Bob Phillips
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Author: Michelle
Date: 2005-12-06 06:10
I had a similar problem in college with a brand new yamaha. I finally kept the screw backed out 2-3 turns so it stuck up above the post a bit. That kept the part of the screw that bound up out of the post. Not a perfect solution but one that may get you by for a while.
good luck.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2005-12-06 08:10
I took apart the keys again an found another problem. There were two screws that were reveresed. They look identical but when I changed them the long metal thing (not the one in the picture, a different one that also had a problem) became free. Now all the serious problems are fixed but the short air sound is still there. It is actually better than before and I feel it can be even better.
I think I know what the problem is nowbut don't have the tools or experience to fix it (I'm affraid to try).
I'm seriously considering going abroad to learn how to repair clarinets.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2005-12-06 12:00
Just a few comments that may be of use to somebody - a budding technician?
".....In the picture attached the screw I circled doesn't turn freely in his sleeve. It turns freely most of the way and then feels a little stuck in one place..."
Unless there is another factor such as rust or gummy residue from evaporated oil... If a tube and a rod bind evenly during a whole revolution of the rod, then either the rod OR the tube is bent. If the binding is for only part of each revolution, then the both the rod and the tube are bent.
Tubes are NORMALLY far more likely to bend than rods. However, for these particular keys, with more than one tube mounted on the one shaft between quite only two, quite separated posts, in an exposed location, bent pivot rods are common.
If the rod is bent inside the highlighted keys, then while you are turning the rod, you will probably see the tube at the mid-point between the posts perform a circular jiggling action.
It is best to test for tubes binding on rods while the keys and rod are OFF the instrument, away from the influence of posts and springs.
If the jamming occurs only during the last part-turn of tightening the rod-screw, then the most likely causes are a misaligned threaded post, a bent threaded section on the rod, or a burr that has been formed (by use) on the inside end of the tube, next to the post.
If all the keys between 2 posts slightly resist being parted from between the posts after the springs are unhooked and the rod is removed, then the problem is likely to be that one or more tubes is slightly too long (either from manufacture - quite common! - or resulting from timber shrinkage), or a post (usually one with a spring mounted on it) is a little loose in its mounting and has turned slightly.
Lubrication is most unlikely to deal with these problems. Keys should operate completely freely without lubrication. Lubrication is to reduce wear and make the mechanism quiet, not to solve binding problems!
Tubes are usually straightened by judicious mounting - I do it on 1st & 3rd fingertip (ouch!) - and judicious tapping halfway between the fingertips. I use a small metal hammer with acrylic punch (so as not to bruise the metal). Important! ... the rod must be inside the tube during this operation.
Rods are straightened by flexing and unflexing them while they are spinning, held at one end in a high-accuracy chuck. I do this flexing using a stick of lubricated hardwood with an appropriate hole drilled through it.
Sandpapering/filing may be a bandaid for a bent rod or tube, but it does not solve the original problem. It constitutes a whole heap of wear, and leaves a situation where wear will be more prononunced inside the ends of the tubes, which is the most undesirable location for wear.
Save the fine sandpaper for when the rod is rusty. Then spin the rod fast, mounted in a motorised chuck, while holding the sandpaper against the rod.
If a key is binding and you keep the screw "backed out 2-3 turns so it stuck up above the post a bit", and the tube is still binding on the shaft, then the rod is now rotating in the posts, and that is where the wear will take place. Wear here is more of a problem to correct than wear in a pivot tube. If you do this and the problem is rust, then you have not heeded the warning message, and the rust may progress until correction becomes a much greater task.
Post Edited (2005-12-06 20:36)
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Author: BobD
Date: 2005-12-06 12:34
As usual good analysis from Gordon. THANKS!, because this applies to more than just Bass clarinets.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2005-12-06 16:55
Gorden thanks for the through diagnostic discussion. I'm embarrassed to have resorted to sandpaper on my troublesome tenor instead of looking first for a bent component.
Bob Phillips
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Author: eskil
Date: 2005-12-07 21:33
Here's some handy tips on bass clarinet mechanisms and how to adjust them:
http://www.lynsgarden.co.uk/Clarinets.html
In the menu, find and click the link "Adjusting Speaker Mechanisms (and other twiddlers)"
Not sure if this helps with your problem, Clarnibass, but I guess that after messing around with the mechanism, you'll want to adjust it, so...
Good luck with your bass! /Eskil
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