 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2005-12-02 22:58
I'm overhauling an elderly hard rubber clarinet. I noticed that the keywork, while being responsive, is rattling a bit. Closer examination revealed that the rods are a bit thin, the hinge tubes have play and rattle when the keys are operated fast.
I played with the thought of bending the rods ever so slightly but I feel that this is not the proper way to do it (my neck hair bristle at the mere thought). Thicker grease instead of oil? Ask my wife for a hair or to to pull in along with the rod? Insert a shim?
--
Ben
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2005-12-02 23:30
Some good repairmen recommend a thicker oil anyway. Sounds like the tubes wore down under use without enough lubricatioin. The "fix" would be new rods but this is more ($) than you may want to do for the horn. By all means, don't bend the rods or tubes.
............Paul Aviles
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-12-02 23:38
The only real solution os replace tem all with slightly larger diameter steels, but yeah it's expensive to do the lot (and have them done well), though it will be more mechanically sound afterwards.
Thicker oil will keep the noise down (try gearbox oil - but not automatic transmission fluid), definitely not grease as this will make the lot sluggish.
Shims can only remove end play, but excess end play can be removed through swaging the key barrels, then fraising back to have a nice smooth bearing surface on the ends.
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Author: ron b
Date: 2005-12-03 04:12
You might try Yamaha key oil. It's a little heavier than most other key oils. Some techs like lightweight motor oil. It may seem contrary to common sense, but the heavier oil you can use, the better. If that fails to stifle the rattles, ask your local tech to swedge the keys for you. A swedging tool will shrink the tubes to fit the rods more snugly. It's way faster and far less expensive than replacing all the hinge screws.
You don't mention the pivots, Ben, but they can be dealt with in a similar manner. Just ask your tech for an opinion and an estimate. You might be happily surprised how easily it can be done.
Bending tubes might work for a while but it's really a bad fix, bent keys are damaged keys, and that will make future repair much more time consuming, (expensive).
- r![[cool]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/cool.gif) n b -
Post Edited (2005-12-03 04:14)
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2005-12-03 09:52
Thank you for your advice.
I should mention that this is a 20$ ebay horn which I bought for learning and tinkering. It sounds surprisingly well so I think it's worth some investment of time, although new rods etc is out of question.
I have some excellent lithium and silicone grease in the basement (tubes with various IBM greases), I'll try them first. I'll let you know about the results.
--
Ben
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Author: Shorthand
Date: 2005-12-03 11:31
Dr. Henderson has some heavier oils in his "Pros" section.
Gear oil would be 70 or 80 weight Redline (or royal purple) manual transmission lube, I assume? IIRC, that stuff has some additives that stink to high heaven.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-12-03 11:46
I use Esso GX gear oil which is 85 - 90 - but usually on point screws as it's too thick. It is fragrant(!), but not as bad as Lithium grease.
It also says "It is also suitable for top-up of limited slip diffrentials" - I wonder how many urban 4x4 owners know what one of those is, and what it does considering they'll never use the thing off-road, except the supermarket car park or the garage forecourt. That's enough jibes for now.
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Author: Shorthand
Date: 2005-12-03 12:03
A Limited Slip Differential is different from the transfer case or locking differential found on a serious 4x4. Its a performance thing to help you exit a curve more quickly, and while its found on some trucks (and indeed very many 4x4's), its more common as a sports car thing, either FWD or RWD. Most LSD's require some special chemicals (Fords require different lubrication than Chevys (Positraction) because of the clutch materials they use.) but that's not just a different thread, but a different board, but I wouldn't top off with anything but the recommended lube with the right additives.
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2005-12-03 15:40
No, Chris, not nearly enough jibes!
Ask me off line about locking diffs in trucks.
Bob Phillips
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Author: John O'Janpa
Date: 2005-12-03 18:41
Selmer sells a product called "Tuning Slide and Cork Grease". It comes in a little white rectangular squeeze container. I have been using it successfully as a "thick" rod and pivot lube for several years. Cheap and easy to apply when clarinet is apart for new pads, etc.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-12-03 19:35
I have silenced some loose key work by making "shims" from wax[ed] paper, to compensate for tube-end wear. I cut a strip about 2mm wide, fold it to the desired thickness, pierce it with a pin or small screwdriver, insert it between the tube and the threaded post, and Eureka !, it works. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2005-12-04 02:47
For play in pivot TUBES, a valid alternative to fitting larger shafts, often used by technicians, is to 'swedge' (industry term - not in the dictionary) the tubes. One uses specialised swedging tools to squeeze the tube tighter around the shaft. In the process, the tube gets a little longer (depending somewhat on the particular tool used, and may well need follow-up adjustment for length, for which other specialised tools are used.
This is not possible on a tube which has attachments brazed all along its length, as is often the case for F/C & G#/D#.
Swedging can also be used to lengthen keys that have point pivot screws at the end, in order to remove play.
In my experience, sloppy pivot tubes are normally like that because they were MADE like that, rather than from wear. It is a very easy way to skimp on manufacturing costs.
Some swedging tools are like pliers with a smooth pair of half-rounds cut into the jaws. Another is a collet-type, which squeezes more evenly around the metal, but can only be used on an open end of a tube.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-12-04 13:15
TKS, G [NZ] - A fine description of "what should be done" for long term use re: the lower/larger key tubes. My wax paper shims are unattractive, and wear out, so I should have included the word "temporary". I believe that only 2 pro repairers I know of in Oklahoma have the capability to perform your "tube ?shrinking/elongating?" methods. In your last sentence, I'd think that using your "pliers" method, that the tube should contain the rod before being squeezed to prevent over-doing the reduction. Will be interested in your comments, TKS, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-12-04 13:34
You can buy swaging pliers from Ferrees or similar, or make your own from a pair of pliers with smooth jaws, file a couple of semicircular channels across the jaws and if possible one in the tip so you can use the end as well, and paper it all up with several grades of emery, then buff with Hi-fin for a smooth, mirror-like finish and this'll do the job.
This is all mentioned in an earlier thread
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=129697&t=129579
but certainly leave the steel inside the tube while swaging to prevent the tubing getting squished oval.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2005-12-04 13:51)
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Author: Burt
Date: 2005-12-04 14:14
I've used teflon tape on my bari sax for this purpose. So far (1 year), it has stayed in place.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2005-12-04 21:48
Another possible, weird and wacky as it may sound.....
I use this sometimes for posts whose pivot rod holes have been drilled too large (usually by the manufacturer!), when the job does not warrant re-bushing with metal... especially sax lower stack key posts - Yamaha makes them so sloppily on their student saxes!
The technique consists of bushing with a hard, wear-resistant polymer, Superglue!!
- Ensure that the rod is well polished.
- Rub a grease or oil well onto the surface, but remove ALL excess. This is hopefully to stop the superglue sticking too well.
- Clean the inside of the tube as best you possibly can, with solvent that removes oil.
- Put the shaft inside the tube, trying not to transfer the oiliness on the shaft onto the inside of the tube.
- Apply superglue to both ends of the tube, and wait for it to set, hoping and praying that your oil treatment of the shaft stops the superglue sticking!
- Cut/scrape off excess glue from the exposed shaft.
- Remove the shaft - good luck!! Now the tube should be lined with set superglue, for a very accurately firm fit with the shaft.
- File (etc- whatever) the superglue lining of the tube until the shaft fits freely.
Caution: I cannot guarantee that this will work for you. If you glue your shaft 'permanently' inside the tube, then heat will be your rescuing agent.
When I was introduced to this technique for posts, I was sceptical, but eventually plucked up courage to try it. It has worked well for me now on quite a few occasions. As I say, I have never tried it with a pivot tube.
If the shaft has irregular diameter, then I would expect to encounter problems.
Note that superglue comes in many different qualities, some of which is useless. Choose a reputable brand name. Low viscosity will penetrate the tube further, but increase the risk of bonding the shaft to the tube.
For work with posts I actually move the shaft around a bit before the superglue sets, to ensure that it penetrates the entire gap within the post.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2005-12-05 07:06
Gordon,
I'm glad you came up with the bushings idea too; that gives me quite a bit of confidence. My plan is similar, but a tad different:
I'll use 2 component epoxy glue (Araldite & friends). Degrease and clean the tube. Apply a hefty glue drop on one end of the tube so that it looks like you were dipping a maccaroni in ketchup. Glue should be 3..5 mm on the inside, a bit on the front end, not quite so much on the outside of the tube. Use a toothpick to push a "pilot hole" into the tube. Let glue harden. Now use a drill of about the same diameter as the rod (slightly less) and finish the hole. Gently sand the front of the tube till there's no more lateral play.
Same procedure for the other end of the tube.
Now you have a combined bushing/shim. No metal touches metal so the whole shebang will move virtually silently.
Yes, that's what I'll do. I can't lose a lot.
--
Ben
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2005-12-05 10:52
It sound sound to me.
I don't see why you need a pilot hole. just drill from the other end, and the tube itself will act sufficiently as a pilot. Yes, a pilot hole may ensure that there is equal wall thickness around the resulting bush, but for it to perform that function, it would have to be PERFECTLY central.
I see only three possible problems:
1. Could the chemical composition of the cured epoxy encourage rusting of the steel, more than if the epoxy was not there. It seems to me, from nibbling the stuff (!) that there is more residual active chemical in epoxy than in superglue (which is actually used in human bodies - I use it to instantly deal with annoying cuts in my fingers.)
2. Most plastics absorb moisture from the air and swell. I suspect that set epoxy swells more than set superglue in a humid situation, theoretically increasing the possibility of the pivot jamming.
3. Epoxy seems to have quite a large friction coefficient, perhaps reducing the freedom in the action.
So why don't you use the same approach but with 95/5 (tin/silver) solder. I'm sure this is a far better bearing material, and is very corrosion resistant. I have used it for an F/C and G#/D# pivot, very successfully, extending the length of the tube at the same time.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2005-12-05 11:24
> So why don't you use the same approach but with 95/5 (tin/silver) solder.
That'll be the final, perfect, fix.
While googling for delrin I stumbled over ptex (the ski repair candles) and wondered if it'd be worth a try. If it doesn't work I can simply heat the tube and grab a pipe cleaner...I'll try that tonight.
--
Ben
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Author: Shorthand
Date: 2005-12-05 13:33
You can always reverse the superglue with acetone or even better comercially avaialbe "unsetting" agents for it. (Acetone with an additive.)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-12-05 13:37
If you can buy acetone - none of the chemists in my part of the world sell it anymore.
Where key barrels can't be swaged I've often done barrel grafts - fraising back the barrel into the key and soldering a length of barrel back on, then fraising back to the right length to take up lateral movement.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2005-12-05 13:40)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2005-12-05 13:40
Say, aren't you guys talkin' about nail polish remover?
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-12-05 14:25
Chris, how about other ketones, methyl-ethyl [MEK] or m- isobrutal[!] MIBK? The esters as in nail polish remover are nearly as good solvents and somewhat safer. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2005-12-05 18:46
Attachment: RattlingRodRepair.gif (2k)
Okay, I did it.
Using a sanding tip I widenend the tube's end. Filled epoxy in it, drilled and sanded after drying. (see picture).
I tried Gordon's superglue trick first. Not for the faint of heart, I wouldn't do it a 2nd time, and certainly not with a long rod. The &%รง&! rod nearly stuck in there for good, and after I managed to remove it the remaining glue was too thin to do any good.
So I had this idea of the "glue wedge". (Should work with solder too.). That specific key is now silent, no end play, just as it should be.
Thank you all for brainstorming. Listening to other people's experience and guidance is always a good and inspiring thing. Politicians should consider that too.
--
Ben
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-12-05 20:17
Why not just countersink the end with a large twist drill (hand-held - and NOT machine operated)?
I fitted nylon inserts to some point screw ends on my old Centered Tone - a nylon harp string of 2mm diameter works well for this.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2005-12-05 20:20)
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2005-12-05 20:33
> Why not just countersink the end with a large twist drill (hand-held - and
> NOT machine operated)?
A normal drill bit has a rather flat angle (118 degrees); I wanted something pointier so that the countersink would be deeper and consequently the contact area with the glue larger.
As per the twist drill - the material used for the tube seems rather hard, and I didn't want to accidentally bend the key (it was that tiny G#) while going berserk with the twister. Besides, I am soooo proud of my dremel thingy!
--
Ben
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2005-12-05 21:41
"You can always reverse the superglue with acetone"
Yes, acetone is a solvent for superglue, but the result is very likely to be a glorious sticky mess all over the key (and fingers), quickly drying to a superglue 'lacquer'.
Also, acetone will take a very long time to permeate and dissolve superglue between two long mating surfaces such as a pivot tube and rod.
IMO
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2005-12-05 21:56
"I've used soft solder in the same manner."
Just to clarify:
The particular soft solder (95/5) I specified was chosen because of a range of desirable properties. As an aside... for gap filling, as in this case, one of its close relations, (94/6 tin/silver) may be easier to use.
- It is at least twice as strong/hard as conventional lead solder
- It is far more resistant to corrosion. So if it is used to extend a key, the result will continue looking bright, matching the silver plating of the key.
- It is safer to use because it is lead free.
Its melting temperature is only a little higher than that of lead solder. This is not in the high-temperature, "hard solder", "silver-brazing", copper/silver-based category, usually but incorrectly referred to as "silver solder".
For outstanding technical information on solders:
http://www.krausmusic.com/solderin/solders.htm
(But Kraus restricts sales to only technicians.)
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2005-12-05 21:59
Chris wrote "I can't get neat acetone."
INteresting. I probably could not buy it from a chemist either. Perhaps it has too much to do with drug manufacturer.
However when I go to a chemical supply house, and give personal details, I have no problem buying 20 litres.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-12-05 23:30
I think it's probably down to Health & Safety that no chemists seem to stock it (acetone). I'm surprsed I can still get Evo-Stik.
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