 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: ed03
Date: 2005-11-20 03:50
Hi,
Everyone seems to be talking about buffets... Well I own a R13 and a festival but is there anyone who is in love with their Yamaha? I was always curious to try them. And also.. anyone ever seen a Yamaha Double Soft Sided Case? I can't find a picture of it anywhere....
thanks
Ed
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Author: Bnewbs
Date: 2005-11-20 04:28
I have tried a couple of yamaha SEV's. I cant speak for the CSV or CSG, but the SEV is very similar to the R13s I have played. I think its Yamaha's attempt to copy the R13 (like what Selmer did with the 10G) I like the tone of R13's more, but the Yamahas had almost dead on intonation, I mean really good. The only other clarinets I have played on with intonation that good were a Lablanc Opus II, and a couple of Selmer Signatures. Selmer Recitals are not far behind. If Yamaha could just get the tone quality and keywork of a Selmer or an Opus they would be set. If you like R13s (it sounds like you do), but hate how wide the 12ths can be, you will probably like Yamaha's. If you more of a Lablanc or a Selmer fan (like myself) it probably won't be your new favorite.
I have not seen a soft sided double case, just the leather pouchette on the CSV/SEV, and hard sided double (which is way overpriced for what it is).
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2005-11-20 04:40
A few weeks ago I've tried a lot of Yamahas. I think about 5 or 6 of their top two models, and some student models, and their top bass clarinets. I thought they were very good but not as good as what I was playing, and I liked them slightly less than the Buffets, Leblancs, and Selmers I've tried.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-11-20 12:16
I don't think that Selmer's 10G even came close to copying the R-13 in any way. That was Gigliotti's aim, but I don't feel that he got it.
I've got Peter Simenaur's 10G Clarinet which is a Z series (said to be Tony's best series for the 10G) and it's a very good instrument, but quite different than my Buffet. - in sound, intonation, and feel.
Got a Yamaha SEV over the summer to buy and sell, and it was quite good. I'd compare that to the Buffet R-13 in how it played and felt. The keywork was very good also. I had bought several of the major brands to compare and select one as a teaching instrument (I don't play my main clarinets in lessons, only for performing) - ended up selecting the Selmer Signature as the one for me.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-11-20 12:26
All the Yamahas I've seen could do with more venting here and there.
I prefer their saxes and flutes over their clarinets.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2005-11-20 14:49
The Yamaha literature says the following about the various models of the
YCL (Custom Series) Clarinets:
AE -- relatively small tone holes; moderate tone hole shaping; long bell. Claims: more resistant than SE or CS, pure and focused sound with powerful projection; well balanced throughout registers; long bell gives darkness: Bb and A isntruments well matched; approaches Boosey and Hawkes 10-10 sound.
SE -- larger overcut and undercut of the tone holes than AE; longer taper on the upper joint; bore similar to Buffet RC Claim: free-blowing.
CS -- modeled on the Buffet R13 -- small tone holes with small overcut and larger undercut. Claims: easy to blow, concentrated and clear with good projection. Claude Faucomprez’s instrument.
CX -- similar the CS but with a different bell-ring and separate inserted tone chimneys. Claim: brighter than the CS.
This has some specificity. At least there's no nonsense about a "more youthful" sound. However, the sample-to-sample variation is almost certainly as big as the variation between models.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Max S-D
Date: 2005-11-20 16:59
Actually, if Yamaha's clarinets are like their saxophones, these instruments are probably frighteningly consisntent, with excellent intonation. Based on the above comments, however, it sounds like Yamaha clarinets have the same problem as their saxes: they're missing something tone-wise that's hard to put a finger on but is noticeable right away to a player. Probably not a bad horn though.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-11-20 17:12
I personally find Yamaha clarinets stuffy to play - in that there's a lot of resistance even using my own set-up, though they could do with having the ventings tweaked as I already mentioned.
I tried a CX last week (the clarinet, not the Citroen - though I once owned one of those and it was the best car I've ever driven), it was good as far as response and tuning, but I still like my Series 9s and CTs - they just have more to give I think.
But as far as Yamaha Custom saxes go, I think they've got a great product there (and I'm fortunate to have an excellent example of an 875EX alto), and their 674 flutes are bloody loud, but very sharp up top.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2005-11-20 18:08
If you have surplus Yamahas, just mail 'em to me. (If it's an SR500, I wouldn't mind either).
--
Ben
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Author: cpark
Date: 2005-11-21 02:37
I would give the CSG a try. It's yamaha's newest model. I play it, and like it very much.
Great feel, most in tune and even horn I've tried. You should try a couple of these to get a sense of how they play...they are very consistent, but of course evey piece of wood vibrates differently.
-Chris
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2005-11-21 03:16
I think that Yamaha clarinets are variable --like all others. I just borrowed a student Yamaha (plastic) that was pretty wonderful. DIdn't have it set up for my favored sound, but it played well --intune and with no notes that "popped" out too much.
My colleague at the high school has a Yami A (wood) that is just wonderful. Big, mellow sound, good intonation.
Bob Phillips
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Author: Mike Clarinet
Date: 2005-11-21 12:26
Last year, I tried a SEV and a CSV when looking for a new clarinet. I appreciate, as has been said, that all clarinets are variable, but these two were absolutely disasters. One had nearly a quarter-tone intonation difference between middle C and clarion G, and the other was little better. (Yes, I used the same mpc and reeds when testing Selmers and Buffets at the same time). Both had a harshness in the upper clarion that I hated. I know that a lot of people like the student models, but this has put me off Yamaha clarinets for life.
PS my sister plays a Yamaha flute and loves it! It's only these model clarinets I am moaning about.
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2005-11-21 16:36
I've bought a couple of YCL52s for students who love them. Also a couple of Allegros. They had very nice tone, but weren't Yamaha's high-dollar end--so can't really compare to Buffet R-13 or anything like that.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-11-21 17:48
I know it's only a plastic Yamaha, but as far as tuning goes I can't really find any faults on my YCL 24. Not to mention the workmanship is amazing for a plastic student model, if not the best, and much better than a lot of pro level instruments.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2005-11-21 20:25
My sentiments exactly, for the student Yamahas. Get them set up well, and they are amazing.
On three occasions I sat in the pit next to clarinet players whose playing hugely impressed me. I was surprised to find one player on a plastic Yamaha. Another was on a student (Bakelite) Boosey & Hawkes Regent.
Don't get too hung up on instrument unless you are so high in the echelons of playing that you notice a thousand things your audience would never notice.
Now 'sluggish-feel' mechanism because of poorly designed springs, as on student Bueshers.. now that's a different story!
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-11-21 20:31
Yamaha saxes are very much like Japanese cars (think "Camry") -- well-designed. consistent and well-made, always good but never great, reliable but lacking in character. No comment on their clarinets, I've never tried any. If you're the type of person who really likes Toyota or Honda automobiles, you probably have the right mind-set for Yamaha instruments.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2005-11-21 21:08
Wouldn't "consistency" contradict "character" anyway?
Analytically speaking, Yamaha gear (from instruments through motorbikes) is an "army of clones", just grab one, can't do wrong, no one's really impressed nor excited. Other manufacturers have a larger span of quality, we hear "I tried 30 different XYZs till I found one I really liked" and everyone says oooh and aaaah.
--
Ben
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2005-11-21 21:48
"No comment on their clarinets, I've never tried any. If you're the type of person who really likes Toyota or Honda automobiles, you probably have the right mind-set for Yamaha instruments."
That's hardly a fair statement, David, if you have never tried any! :-)
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Author: Connor
Date: 2005-11-22 04:42
It's almost ironic i vistited this site today. I just got a new Yamaha-CSG that Bil Jackson selected for me. My first impresion is WOW! I curently play on a Buffet Tosca, and compared to the Yamaha, it is bright, and a little harder to control. The yamaha feels very resistant, however, it will switching to my Buffet A clarinet a little more comforatable.
Connor
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-11-22 10:21
Gordon,
My "unfair" statement was poorly written -- the automobile analogy only applies to Yamaha's saxophones, of which I've tried dozens (from bari to soprano) and never really liked any of them. As I was attempting to say, I have no comment on the clarinets as I have not played any of those. Cheers! ![[toast]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley15.gif)
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Author: jbutler ★2017
Date: 2005-11-22 10:59
I have a very good Yamaha SE "A". I would put it up to anyones R13; and in fact have with some Houston players. Jim E, a person who I worked with for 3 years, has a Brannenized R13 A, and offered it in trade for my Yami. I declined the offer.
jbutler
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2005-11-22 13:01
I've played several Yamahas through the years of shopping for instruments for students and some were quite nice.
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Author: sinkdraiN
Date: 2005-11-22 13:39
I don't think its accurate to talk about the character of an instrument. Character comes from the player or driver. Are you trying to say that a performance will lack character on a horn that is consistant and in tune, such as a yamaha.
When people talk about the character of a Honda they are talking about it's looks. Put a strong driver behind one and it is one of the better cars to race on the streets. That's why there are so many Honda tuners out there.
It's a lot easier to breath character into a horn that is comfortable and plays in tune, etc...
Post Edited (2005-11-22 15:51)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-11-22 13:53
And my Yamaha 875EX alto has much better tuning and response than my Selmer SA80II - and there's less (if anything) that needs to be done to Yamahas to get them working well as they are probably the best set up saxes I've seen from new - only adjustments that need doing are the three large adjusting screws (long Bb, F#-G# and low B-C#). Still waiting for the Custom 875 baritone to turn up though, I'll snap one of these up as soon as it hits the UK shores.
Having overhauled (and cork padded) this YCL 24, it's probably more airtight and responsive than a new clarinet of any make. I just have to make sure there's plenty of end play in all the keys so they won't bind between the pillars when played outdoors.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2005-11-22 13:59)
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-11-22 17:57
sinkdrain,
I have owned (and curently own) a fair number of Italian cars, Fiats and Alfas. If you have ever driven any of these, you might understand my remark about 'character'.
No "Fix It Again, Tony" jokes, please --- I've heard 'em all, at least a dozen times each. Please send those 'slammed' Hondas up against my GTV-6 anytime -- I'm waiting.
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Author: donald
Date: 2005-11-22 18:26
David S- i get where you're coming from with the analogy
but.....
most people own a car to use as a "tool" not as a "toy"
most people own a clarinet to use as a "toy" not a "tool"
this does mean that they'll have slightly different criteria when it comes to the "bang for your buck" equation
also, many of the people buying clarinets are not the ones paying for it (ie the parents get to pay).
donald
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-11-22 19:20
donald,
I completely agree with your comments. Just as with cars (which I understand very well and can for the most part fix myself), I understand clarinets and saxes and always do my own maintenance and repair on them, so naturally my perspective is much different from that of the typical (especially younger) player.
That said.....one of the 'raison d'etres' of this BB is to provide different perspectives, n'est-ce-pas?
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Author: Carol Dutcher
Date: 2005-11-22 19:36
I am soon going to purchase a soprano sax. I went to a large music store in the Bay Area and tried every make and model they had. I narrowed it down to a Yamaha over anything else. I also liked the Cannonball which is pretty new, but I think for resale value, whenever that might be, the Yamaha would be the best bet for me.
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Author: sinkdraiN
Date: 2005-11-23 00:02
Flaws are often mistaken as character. Character is what makes something different from the rest of the pack. Whether or not the "character" of something is a good thing or not is up to observer. Maybe we have two different definitions of character. The 4 big brands all sound very different and saying one of these brands lack character has me trying to figure out how a Yamaha could be perceived as sounding so much like the other 3.
The Pontiac Aztec has more character than just about anything on the road...I'd much rather drive the Camry.
Yamaha just hasn't been able to break into the clarinet market. The saxophone, flute, and oboe community has really embraced the brand but not clarinets. Not sure why.
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Author: Scotti
Date: 2005-11-23 00:26
They haven't embraced them yet, but I think the time is soon upon us. I've always considered clarinetists a weird bunch who are very, very concerned with sound, but often their perception of sound is more based on feel, rather than the aural reality. Non-clarinetists rarely hear a difference if a player moves from Buffet to Selmer to Leblanc, anyway. But they do hear a difference in intonation and evenness of tone.
Also, Yamaha is really starting to step it up on their pro instruments. The new CSGs are the most in-tune, even, and maybe even free-blowing clarinets I've tried. Why don't I own one? Because I didn't quite care for the "sound." But even I'm beginning to realize there is something in the way a Buffet vibrates in your hands that contributes to the belief that only they have the right sound. I have a number of friends in full-time professional groups who are making the switch to Yamaha right now.
Scott
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Author: bkmorton
Date: 2005-11-23 02:17
I have been playing on the Yamaha YCL-CSG h series for the past 1 1/2 years. Previously, I was on a Buffet Festival.
I switched because I couldn't find another buffet that was as good as the older instrument I had. I really wanted another Festival because I love the Eb auxilary key. I fell in love with this Yamaha as I tried out several horns.
I love the horn because it is incredibly in tune and has a great tone. The only criticism that I have is it does have a stuffiness when playing mp and p.
It took some time getting use to NOT having to compensate for being out of tune. It can blend with Buffets but you have to remember the tendencies of the buffet.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-11-23 11:49
I struggled with a Yamaha Custom 821 oboe as far as tuning went - they have copied Loree, Marigaux and Rigoutat in the one instrument which isn't a bad thing, but the Gs were flat against the As so the Gs had to be lipped up a fair bit - but then lip the As down or they'd end up being too sharp. I don'tknow if they have sorted this out on their latest pro models.
It was a well built instrument and easy to transplant a new top joint (as the original split during a rehearsal), it had a good tone, but obviously it didn't have the same depth or richness of tone as a Loree, Marigaux or Rigoutat.
[ Portions deleted; Chris P. is an employee of Howarth's and did not disclose such until much later. My apologies for missing this and letting Chris P. misuse this BBoard. Mark Charette ]
A bassoonist mentioned the current Yamaha bassoons are the nearest to Heckels (for a fraction of the price), which isn't surprising as they have copied them down to the smallest details, even using 1.8mm diameter screws!
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2005-11-23 14:05
I just bought a mint Yamaha YCL 34 to play outdoors in our Christmas concert. It'll be great for that. Good back-up clarinet.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-11-23 14:25
I was comparing the tone of my own 'outdoor use' plastic YCL 24 with my Series 9s - yeah it's a plastic clarinet but it does have a good tone, though obviously much brighter and not as full as a Selmer, but who cares as long as it sounds as good as I can make it sound, and more importantly, it plays in tune?
And in some respects it's easier to get on with than my Series 9 - especially the long Bb (xoo|xoo) is more stable and hasn't got the ghost tones from the lower register creeping in, and won't fly to a top G if pushed too hard.
I only hope I don't end up doing any harm to it's playing characteristics when it comes to adding the forked Eb/Bb mechanism - I'm sure it won't but it's no loss, better to experiment on a cheap clarinet than a £2000+ model. The first phase of keywork conversion went without a hitch (adding the extra Ab/Eb lever) so I hope this next phase will go smoothly, and I can't see any reason why it shouldn't.
But in comparison to the new Yamaha plastic student models, this one (YCL 24 - I think it's around 25-30 years old) seems and feels more solid in it's construction. I was looking for an old B12 to chop up, but I'm glad this one came along.
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Author: Carol Dutcher
Date: 2005-11-23 15:30
I tried Jupiter, Yanigasawa, Cannonball, Yamaha, I don't believe they had any of the others you mentioned.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-11-23 16:44
Is 'Cannonball' the same as the Elkhart/Earlham/Warwick/Artemis/Bently/etc. soprano - in other words a Taiwanese one (but not made by Jupiter)?
You'd be better off with Yamaha as their build quality is much better than Borgani, Keilwerth and Rampone&Cazzani.
I remember trying Rampone&Cazzani, Orsi and Grassi bari saxes - never again! Talk about bendy keywork!
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-11-23 22:25
Cannonball saxes are assembled in the US (Utah, I think?) from Taiwanese components. Supposedly they are very well adjusted and regulated and play well. The new series of Rampone & Cazzani professional saxes are very expensive and have received excellent reviews. Keilwerths are and have always been very good instruments and are solidly made. Borgani used to be one of the few non-Selmer games in town (soprano sax-wise) but that hasn't been true for at least the last 15 years -- they have plenty of competition now. Just my opinions (which clearly are at odds with Chris P's).
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-11-23 23:06
Maybe the Borganis, Rampones and Keilwerths I've seen were all finished on Friday afternoons - as well as Selmer saxes. Maybe that's just a fluke, the crap ones are all destined for the UK!
Even the German-built Keilwerths, no matter how sturdy they are built have their flaws, and their Taiwanese-built student ones even more so.
For sopranos, the market leader has to be Yanagisawa - they make a soprano for every occasion.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2005-11-24 05:22
I concur with Chris re the Keilworth saxes. Every time I work on one I am disappointed in some way, even the Germany-made ones. Not withstanding, many players rave about their tone.
I have found the Taiwanese ST-90 alto a particularly poorly made sax, and cannot understand why Keilworth ever compromised their reputation by putting their name on it.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2005-11-24 10:51
To get back to topic, I have not yet played one of the CSG clarinets, but I have always been impressed with the Yamaha clarinets that I have played. They have all been very even, responsive and in tune. No monkeying around from note to note. I have been impressed with the quality control as well. I have played a number of them right out of the box that played well enough to go on stage to play a concert as is.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-11-24 12:24
Yamaha's reputation is indeed built on their quality control as well as their products - I still wonder how they can charge such competitive prices with the high level of workmanship they maintain, I know they have factories outside Japan producing student and intermediate level instruments, but even so, they still maintain the standards and uniformity they've set out from the start.
Their repair manual from the '70s has all the pad venting heights they use, and even the dimensions of their key corks!
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Author: Matt Locker
Date: 2005-11-24 13:07
FWIW, I have owned a Yamaha SEV Bb for about 4 years. It's a beautiful instrument that has excellent quality. The intonation is very good. My only issues with it have been airy throat tones that I'm now coming to grips with. It seems to be very sensitive in this area to air flow & reed strength. I recently purchased an SEV A clarinet and absolutely love it. It has the most beautiful tone, even response, and beautiful throat tones. This clarinet is a lifetime keeper in my eyes.
The quality of the Yamaha line is excellent. I compared Yamaha to Buffet, Selmer, & Leblanc before purchasing the SEV. The Yamaha was superior to the others particularly Buffet in this regard.
MOO,
Matt
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Author: eskil
Date: 2005-12-12 23:15
I have a Yamaha CX that I like a lot - it has great tone, is comfortable to play, plays very nicely in tune (intonation is extremely good, I would say near perfect). Everything is just great, really. Except for one thing - the sound changes a whole lot when I cross the register break. Alright, alright, it might be me, but it still shows much more on the CX than on my other clarinets. The sound still is great on both sides of the register break, that is not the problem. The point is the fact that there is a difference, which makes me sound very odd if the melody keeps crossing the register break.
Except for this, I can't say that there is anything about the Yamaha that isn't lovable. I am not sure if this register-break-crossing-sound-change thingy is something that can explain why the Yamaha isn't my favorite clarinet, maybe it is just that I suffer from "notmadeoverhere-itis"? (From my European perspective, the Yamaha is definitely the one from furthest away). After all, my favorite clarinet at the moment (a French brand) isn't so perfect that I can't think of stuff that I could complain about, but I still love that one. Weird.
In a more or less similar fashion, I have a very sensible Honda off-road motorcycle that takes second place to my not-so-sensible but very lovably brutish Italian-made Ducati-engined Cagiva off-road motorcycle. And the Cagiva doesn't even start at the moment, the ungrateful little... doll.
/Eskil
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Author: Tom Puwalski
Date: 2005-12-13 01:41
I play the Yamaha SEV. I've done so for about 4 years now, I've been a yamaha performing artist for 3. The SEV is a great instrument. My favorite of the yamaha crop. Let me preface this with my current stable of clarinets
Buffet RCs, Eb,C,Bb,A, Basset horn and bass. I feel that the RC and and the RC prestige are the absolute best clarinets buffet makes! Why anyone spends the time, money and energy to get an R13 to play like an RC is totally beyond my ability to comprehend. What I like about the RC, Purple. To me a the perfect tone color of a clarinet is PURPLE. RCs are purple. When I play them I can go purple or I can get red or I can get blue. I've often felt that an R13 gives you red and various shade of red. I can get a slight blue tinge to it but I'm bustin my ass to do it.
Yamaha Clarinets: 2SEV Bbs 1 Sev A 681 Eb
The Yamaha Sev gives me purple too, but I can get a redder red and a bluer blue. It has a wider color palate. I think it tunes better also. but the real reason I like it is it's fun to play it. I don't know what it is but when you've found the G spot on these horns they're just a blast to play. I like an instrument that gives me lots of tonal posibilities. Add some Backun cocobolo and zebra wood bells, and the tonal posibilities are exponantial!
I've had the chance to try the other Yamahas, I haven't spent nearly the time on them to find their "G" spots or "y" spots but here was my impression of them if I can continue my color thing.
CSV More reddish purple, more red than blue. It played closer to the R13, but easier and didn't have all those weird intonation and bizar tonal zones as the R13.
CSV-G? Blue with a slight red cast. I couldn't bounce the tone around like the SEV. But I was trying prototypes the few I tried a few months later were much improved. I'm going to spend some more time on the production model and see what they've evovled into. But my initial playing made me feel that a different mouthpiece reed combo might be needed.
I have an Mp3 of a Stadle duet with Dr. Cecil Gold that is a recording test. He's playing a Buffet RC prestige and I'm playing an SEV. I'll send it to you if anyone is interested Email me. I also have a few Klezmer Mps of the SEV, and it's the same Mouthpiece and clarinet.
Tom Puwalski, former soloist with the US Army Field Band, Clarinetist with Lox&Vodka, and Author of "The Clarinetist's Guide to Klezmer"and most recently by the order of the wizard of Oz, for supreme intelligence, a Masters in Clarinet performance
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-12-13 02:10
I had a Yamaha SEV and it sounded brighter than my Buffet Prestige R-13.
The keywork was really good. I had purchased the Clarinet on EBAY so it of course could have been a "bad one", but the scale was very good, just didn't have as dark a sound as my other Clarinet. I was looking for a really good spare to beat up as my "teaching instrument" to have out while teaching. I ended up selling it and getting a Selmer Signature instead. The choices I had purchased were 2 R-13's, the Yamaha, 2 Signatures, a Selmer Recital which was old and to me a P.O.S. (current model is great, that old thing wasn't), and a Leblanc Opus I.
My wife helped me select what I sounded best on.
I would expect Yamaha to be very consistantly high quality wise, more so than Buffet.
Post Edited (2005-12-13 13:07)
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