 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Sue G
Date: 2005-11-18 19:50
Hi,
I've just started to play with a pianist for the first time - only ever played with computer generated backing tracks before and she feels that I'm playing "slightly" flat - any suggestions as to how I can correct this would be very welcome as it's affecting my confidence and putting me of playing with her.
Incidentally, she's a piano teacher so I'm sure she's right !!
Thanks
Sue
:)
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Author: archer1960
Date: 2005-11-18 20:11
It might be that the piano is tuned slightly sharp, but you're still stuck being the one who has to adjust even if you are right on.
Do you have your joints already pushed all the way in? Does it change as you play and get your instrument warmed up? You should get sharper as you warm up.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2005-11-18 20:29
Or play a teeny bit more softly (towards pianissimo I mean). I'm sharper when soft and flatter when "honking". A harder/newer reed (which requires a bit more pressure) might have a similar effect.
(I just found out that I'm at ~448Hz after warming up, on two different horns. Wonder what that might be, but at least I can pull the barrel a bit)
--
Ben
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2005-11-18 20:41
Some instruments just play a smidge flatter than others... it can be fixed, if necessary, with a short barrel. But get another player to check.
tictactux - nothing wrong with playing sharp and having to pull the joints out, in my book...
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Author: nickma
Date: 2005-11-18 20:53
Also, depending on how consistent you are across the registers, try adjusting pad heights. Start with giving the speaker key a little bit more distance between pad and tonehole. The this can make a noticeable difference. If the pad is within 1-3 mm of tonehole when open, give it another 2 mm.
Nick
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Author: MikeH
Date: 2005-11-18 23:27
Bring a tuning fork next time you play and check the piano. I have seen a good number of sharp pianos and thay are a real problem because as you know you can't really sharpen the pitch of a clarinet with out getting a shorter barrel. In any case do not automatically think the fault is yours.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2005-11-19 00:17
Just thought I'd throw my old gripe out here again. Seems like the current Buffets with the standard barrel and MANY current top brand mouthpieces play on the low side. Even toying with Buffet barrels that are several millimeters shorter leave me with less than desireable results. So far the Power Barrel by Dr. Henderson has saved my sanity. Perhaps the Backun barrels would have the same positive results but you can't go wrong for $100.
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: pewd
Date: 2005-11-19 01:49
put a tuner on the piano - what is it tuned to?
is it tuned to a=440?
is it in tune?
play your clarinet for 15 minutes to warm up - then check yourself with a tuner - are you in tune to a-440 or not?
don't assume anything or change any equipment until you test it with a tuner.
if you're flat, change reeds. warm up again, check with a tuner on a different reed.
put put a meter on the piano as your first action.
i wouldn't be sure anyones right unless you prove it with a tuner
but then, i was born in missouri
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: 3dogmom
Date: 2005-11-19 02:04
Seems to me that you've got to be able to adjust to tune with the piano, whether it's A440 or not. We need to have the equipment and ability necessary to do so, rather than stamping our feet and saying that we're right.
Sue Tansey
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2005-11-19 15:53
Hey I was just wondering if this sounds right: The reason wind instruments "warm up" is that the air column gets warmer, faster and higher in pitch. Now a stringed instrument is dependent on the material from which it's made to vibrate. If the strings are cold, they will be in a "contracted" phase and would actually vibrate faster, or higher. Therefore, if you are in a cool studio with a piano, chances are the piano will be higher than at a warmer temperature and the clarinet will be lower because the vibrating column of air inside is slower.
Is that right?
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2005-11-19 15:57
Paul - on the flip-side of the Buffet question, everyone I've met who's played Selmer Paris (including myself) has expected to be consistently pulled-out about 2mm to be in tune...
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Author: Sue G
Date: 2005-11-19 18:24
Hi,
Thanks for all your suggestions - you've made me feel a whole lot better !
Actually the piano is electric - it's not a small keyboard as such but more like a proper piano - don't know if that would make any difference ????
Like your list of suggestions Alex - just one other I thought of - I could always change the pianist !
I think that the most likely cause was insufficient warming up beforehand to be honest - will do more next time.
Thanks again
Sue
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Author: donald
Date: 2005-11-19 19:04
"she's a piano teacher so i'm sure she's right"
boy, have you got a lot to learn! ;>]
donald
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2005-11-19 19:17
If it's a digital piano (Clavinova or the like), it can easily be fine-tuned or calibrated to match the accompanied instrument's tuning...maybe the pianist simply doesn't know how.
--
Ben
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Author: charlie_star_uk
Date: 2005-11-20 15:28
i think it is worth being able to adjust your tuning to what is required.... even if the piano is sharp it is worth being able to get your pitch up there...
you never know what the tuning might be like on a piano in a concert hall, or an unfamiliar orchestra etc.. could be worth carrying around a short barrel. maybe check with other pianos and tuner as it might be worth trying different mouthpieces too... i know in uk the B4013 is slightly longer which helps us get down to 440.
good luck!!
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Author: Sue G
Date: 2005-11-22 19:13
Thanks again - it's quite likely that the pianist doesn't know how to tune the piano I guess but as I was only "slightly" flat maybe I shouldn't get too hung up about it and just try to make adjustments myself to rectify if I can - I'm not holding my breath though !!!!!!!!!!!
Sue
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2005-11-22 21:52
Paul brought up temperature, which is a MAJOR issue with tuning.
If you are playing in a coolish room, this will not affect the electric piano, but will definitely make the clarinet significantly flat.
BTW I don't think air temperature affects a piano much. If the strings shrink (which is very little) then so does the frame, by an amount that is pretty similar.
Depending on Sue's clarinet playing ability, the reason for flatness could well be insufficient air pressure - 'puff' - and matching reed support from the lower lip.
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Author: 3dogmom
Date: 2005-11-23 00:59
Of course air temperature has an effect on the pitch of an acoustic piano, but not in a way which is as immediate as that of a clarinet. Pianos must be kept at moderate temperatures, away from sources of heat and cold, or drafts, or they will go out of tune. I believe the piano in question was electronic, however. If so, that would not be the case.
Sue Tansey
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Author: Bill G
Date: 2005-11-24 01:08
Jack Brymer has some interesting comments in his section on Pitch and Tuning, Clarinet,
pp. 131-32. Of particular interest to me is:
What is harder to explain is the case of at least one world class orchestra which employs two clarinettists whose sound blends perfectly, whonormally play well in tune, who use the same model clarinet, the same grade of mouthpiece and reedc and who can in fact play each other's instrument in comfort and with pleasure--who , when the do so, find that the pitch of one is almost a quarter-tone above that of the other. (There must be a good medical reason for this.)
I have to use a 62mm barrel to play in tune at 440.
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2005-11-25 13:49
Interesting, Bill G! Personally, I play towards the sharp side of what is possible for a given note - I find the pitch and tone most stable there. If I want to bend a note, it has to be downwards... but do other people have success with other approaches? Or is there really an influence of the shape of the inside of one's head?
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Author: ClariBone
Date: 2005-11-26 17:21
Is your flatness right from the get-go?? If you've been playing for a while, maybe your tongue is drooping because of fatigue (I know mine does!!!). Try checking your tongue's position. Keep it arched!! Good Luck!!!
Clayton
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Author: Duane
Date: 2005-11-27 05:12
You should do 20 minutes of long tones before playing with anyone or before a performance. This will improve your tone and warm up the clarinet. Also, you can get a series of three tuning rings at a music store that handles clarinet accessories. You will probably only need one or two, but you never know. It would be a good idea to have a chromatic tuner to see if you or your teacher is flat.
Duane
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Author: conrad
Date: 2005-11-29 13:48
I was playing with a small jazz group in the school hall last night and felt I was flat. I recently bought a chromatic tuner. The trumpeter asked if I was flat - I was and he was right in tune. We had ben playing for over an hour
I was severely flat about 20 cents. I have tried again today with two clarinets. I can tune to F and also F# with the side key, but most other notes are flat.I think it is embouchure.
How can I sharpen or flatten my pitch?
Conrad
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Author: sinkdraiN
Date: 2005-11-29 14:26
Several years ago I called Ralph Morgan and asked him if he would make me a custom barrel to raise my pitch just a tick. He said, "no" and told me that "I" should learn to play the clarinet and mouthpiece in tune. He mentioned a bunch of strategies like air support, volume, the amount of mouthpiece, corners of the embouchure, etc... Despite still believing it was the equipment, I spent a lot of time on the things he said and now I can look back and say he saved me a couple hundred bucks. It's not an issue anymore. I'm still surprised Ralph didn't try to sell me one of his barrels. He's a great guy.
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Author: Tyler
Date: 2005-12-01 20:42
If you live in the USA, you should consider figuring out weather-control so it's not so !@#$ cold outside in the morning when I go to school.
-Tyler
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Author: SVClarinet09
Date: 2005-12-02 22:40
Conrad,
i dont know much but i can say that you shouldnt try to tune from thumb F# to Bb because they are usually always out of tune. I normally tune on a B or a C(middle) and normally i stay right in tune the whole time. if not try tighting your embrochure for a sound thats less flat or just try adjusting your barrel or it could be your reed. many sources for the issue. hope this helps you.
Post Edited (2005-12-02 22:41)
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Author: bass9396
Date: 2005-12-02 23:03
When I was in college we had a Steinway in the concert hall and when I went down to play with accompanist I was massively flat to the piano. My teacher immediately had the pianist move over to the Bosendorfer they had on stage and it worked great.
So, to make a long story short, you're not 100% wrong, nor is the pianist 100% right. The piano is probably tuned a little high and you may want to investigate the fact that you MIGHT play a little low in general. Try to use this as a learning experience.
When the student recital was done I had a lesson the next day and I tried some new mouthpieces and found some new stuff that helped my pitch out. You never know what you'll discover.
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