 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Ron Jr.
Date: 2005-11-17 13:45
At what point to you pack up the horn and say "I've given it my best shot, now it's time to move on?
Ron Jr.
Post Edited (2006-03-06 17:16)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-11-17 14:16
I came to the conclusion at 19 after not managing to get the funding to do my performance diploma, and the fact I don't have the academic qualifications to enter music college (I don't play the piano and haven't got a good grade for mathematics - why do I need that anyway? I've done alright so far without it!), I thought there are far more excellent clarinettists out there that can do the job better than I can, though recently I've seen the evidence is somewhat different!
But I still had my talent as a repairer that has got me far, and as far as playing goes, I have played baritone sax in pretty much every big band across four counties.
I don't see why academic qualifications or 'bits of paper' have to determine someone's future or career when their talent and experience should be the determining factor - there are many people with these 'bits of paper' but no experience - I'm glad I've got the experience and rely on that, though I know I will never be a pro, but I'm happy what I have achieved and what I still do.
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Author: Don Poulsen
Date: 2005-11-17 14:37
I'm not a professional musician nor ever had ambitions in that direction, but Chris P is right that a piece of paper is not the determining factor in whether you can do or get a particular job except in highly licensed professions such as the law or medicine. It does give you a big boost in starting a career in a particular field, but later on experience, knowledge and talent are much bigger factors and people rarely care if you have a diploma in a subject or where it came from. This is fortunate in that it allows one to more freely change careers over the span of one's lifetime.
This is not to downplay getting a college degree in a particular area, as college is a great place to develop an initial level of expertise in an area and, as I said, give you that initial boost into the field. (Ideally and, in my mind, more importantly, it should teach people to think logically and critically.)
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Author: archer1960
Date: 2005-11-17 14:50
I never had any desire to be a professional musician. I played clarinet in junior high and high school because it was fun and a challenge, and because I enjoyed the cameraderie of the band. I never played it during college, but have had occasional opportunities to play in the following years, and have enjoyed them all for various reasons, but have never missed not making a career of it.
After my kids grow up and move away, I am considering taking it up again and joining one of the local community bands/orchestras in the area; there are 3 of them within easy driving distance, though one of them is likely too far above my playing ability for me to feel comfortable trying to join.
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Author: Mike Clarinet
Date: 2005-11-17 15:10
The bit of paper means that you have been trained to a particular level. The one thing that is needed is experience. BUT: how do you GET that experience without the bit of paper as a way in through the door?
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Author: chipper
Date: 2005-11-17 15:17
For some reason, when I was young I thought the only musicians worth listening to were the "pros." In fact, one time in the early '70s I was at an organizational meeting for a bus trip to a Washington DC rally where I recomended that we bring a tape player so we'd have music on the bus. I was overwhelmingly stomped by the amature musicians who proposed they bring their instruments. Now with my involvement in amature music I see things differently. I go to student recitals. My son is in the school chorus so I've heard the school band progress from 4th grade into high school and realize what wonderful sound these kids make. I'm now playing with our community band. A part of that tapestry. A large part of making music is the connections formed with others. Metaphorically its figuring out where we fit, how we harmonize with those around us. The band (metaphore for society) is much greater than the sum of its parts.
Boy, isn't that a bunch of blah blah? It's just a lot of fun to play and some can do it for money and the rest of us will have the times of our lives playing for fun.
Peace
Out
C
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Author: DressedToKill
Date: 2005-11-17 15:31
I had that realization about .50 seconds after graduating from Juilliard. I spent the next several months in near-depression, thinking "Why in god's name have I just wasted this much of my life getting such an utterly USELESS degree when I could be in medical school or law school or SOMETHING that might have a snowflake's chance in hell of being lucrative one day?"
Took a while, but I finally figured out the answer...because it makes me happy to make music. I am not a fully professional musician (I'd call myself semi-pro right now, I suppose), and I have chosen to utilize other skills I discovered I possess and work in the corporate world, but I will always have the gift of music to share with people, and it's the only way I'll ever truly be able to express myself, I think. (It's saved me a lot of money on therapy, that's for sure!)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-11-17 16:04
I still would have liked to further my education in music college if I had the chance, I'm not putting people down for getting into or through music college, only I fell at the first hurdle as I'm not the academic type and don't have the entry requirements - I only have one 'A' level (in music) and can't play piano, I'm crap at maths and English literature, and can't exactly see why all these are requirements if I want to study clarinet, not as a soloist but as an orchestral player which is what I like doing, I definitely won't cut it as a soloist in anywhere near the same league as the top soloists, but I prefer orchestral and chamber music and playing in those situautions.
Still, my main instrument is sax and I get plenty of work through that even though I never did any grades on sax. It's the instrument I can get around on more fluently than all the others I play.
Though I could always apply to study music again as a mature student, then again I already have a career in doing what I like and get enough playing as well. Already having a full time job and juggling college work might be too much to take on.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2005-11-17 16:39
About one hour into Freshman year in college.
After thinking that I was "God's gift to the clarinet" I heard about 6 players who were my equal or better.
I then realized a nice steady paycheck (in music education), health benefits, having disposable income, and the ability to play classical with a good local orchestra and jazz gigs with my own big band (as well as give private lessons to the students I choose) were far better choices than scruffling to make a living for the next few decades.
It was the best decision I ever made.
With the current state of live music - definitely no regrets.
BTW - The 6 players I heard, all eventually went into music education for the same reasons ...GBK
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2005-11-17 17:36
Hi,
I realized it during several summers at Interlochen in the early 1950s (my folks spent a princely sum of about $600 each summer for me to have that revelation - the best investment they ever made). Granted, all that I am musically was probably due to Interlochen and a BSEd in Music Ed. from Ohio U. but I knew that I was meant to be a teacher way back then.
As GBK said so well having a "nice steady paycheck (in music education), health benefits, having disposable income, and the ability to play ..." with local symphonic bands and jazz gigs is the very best.
Now I do some consulting, a little bit of weekend teaching, some research that I have wanted to pursue for years, play gigs, and practice regularly. I just got some feelers from another university about coming out of retirement and I said "forgetaboutit!"
HRL
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-11-17 17:59
Maybe earning money working instead of going to music college and living on beans on toast for the three or so years, then faced with debt afterwards and then repayments on tuition fees for the next eternity when eventually finding steady work isn't a bad thing.
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Author: Bnewbs
Date: 2005-11-17 18:02
When I was a junior in high school. seeing the senior clarinetists at my school (two ended up as music ed majors, one as a performance major). I knew then that a band teacher was about as far as I would get with music professionally, and also since I was a freshman in highschool I have wanted to be an Architect. I still play whenever I have the time (still working on the copeland concerto after like 4 years, still getting beat up by it).
Ben
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2005-11-17 20:10
My story is kind of the reverse of some of yours. I actually never had any ambition other than to be a band director (or church musician). But my father, for reasons that I still do not understand (he was a very bright, educated man), was dead set against his daughter going into music.
"What would you do with it?!?!?!?!?!" he harumphed.
Timidly I replied, "I thought I could be a band director."
"Well, I don't like lady band directors."
End of interview.
So I majored in English Literature (now THERE'S a practical major . . .), and got a B.A. and an M.A. in that, as well as one in American Studies (with a musicology concentration -- so there, Daddy!).
I always kept my hand in with music of some sort. But I figured that maybe my parents had known best, and had perceived my lack of musical ability and had saved me from myself.
Then I ran into some working school musicians, and found out that they were not as knowledgeable, after X number of years in practice, about things musical as I already was, even without much training.
So, at 40-something, I went back to school. Took all the music theory available at City College of SF, and then all the church music courses I could find at the seminaries in Berkeley.
I ended up working for 20 years, eventually full time at a living wage, as a church musician. Loved every minute of it. Well, almost.
Still wonder what would have happened if . . . But I absolutely second Hank's and GBK's conclusion that living well, and playing locally, is the best revenge.
Susan
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2005-11-17 20:13
I still haven't learned...LOL!
It did take me until Grad school (in clarinet performance) for me to realize I wouldn't make it as an orchestral musician, after which I enjoyed 3 years of a delusion of thinking I'd make it in the Musicology world even though I hate writing!
Since then I have "found" Eastern European folk music and have returned to playing classical, albeit in an unusual chamber group. I also have a thriving private studio which I adore. I could never teach a group lesson or direct a band...I'm too egotistical not to feel guilty that I couldn't reach EVERY kid!!!
Katrina
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2005-11-17 21:12
'Move on'?
I've lain down the gobstick a couple of times. Just stopped playing for a few years. First, at University, when the competitiveness was just stupid, or so it felt to me. (Physical scientist here, by the way). Took it up again as a postgrad and learnt more in a few years playing in a quartet, earning what we could from busking and small gigs, than I had in my entire musical education up to that point. Laid it down again after touring Belgium with a friend's band - an 'act that couldn't be followed' (and the quartet had drifted apart). And here I am again playing in a local community band and discovering all sorts of new things.
Point is, my ambition was never to make money from it, just music.
You might 'move on', but that doesn't mean you'll stop playing. Music is a 'pure' subject. It exists for its own sake; it has 'intrinsic' value. I know there's pressure in the modern world to make money, to be the best player in the world in order to be recognised. But it's not about that. Every player has his or her own voice to contribute.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-11-17 22:14
In the summer of 1975 when I had just graduated high school and was trying to choose between studying music or engineering in college, my grandfather (who lived in New York City) sent me an envelope with just one thing in it -- no explanation. He sent the employment classified pages from the Sunday NY Times, in which there were TWO PAGES of 'help-wanted' advertisements for engineers, and NOT A SINGLE AD for 'musicians wanted'.
I got the message, and got degrees in engineering. I already knew I would never have the talent to be a full-time professional performer, not by a long shot. Since then I've always had a good, steady income (from non-musical work) which has allowed me to pursue music on the side, playing what I want to play, on whatever instrument I want to play, without worrying about financial survival.
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Author: Ralph Katz
Date: 2005-11-18 22:26
It was the overall perspective I got growning up. I had an uncle who played with the Detroit Symphony. I would meet musicians at his house, and they were all neurotic and unhappy, not the 1950's "happy days" we see on TV. Now as an adult, I can analyze the particular conductor and orchestra board that was in place and compare that situation with other orchestras. I know lots of happy, normal, adjusted musicians, which is really cool. And that is what we should focus on.
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Author: Jamies
Date: 2005-11-19 01:21
Talent is a difficult thing to measure.
The question is whether or not you have or want to learn everything and anything about music. Do you have a good teacher? Have you participated in various ensembles of different styles and sizes? Do you listen to and enjoy listening to recordings and live performances of not only of the clarinet but of any music? Have you studied the theoretal aspects of music? the history of music? the lives of composers? the lives of past musicians?
If you have already opened your mind to the whole entire world of music, practice diligently with a good teacher (this is very important), discovered that you have no ability to teach, critique, organize, or perform, than you could put the horn down.
BUT if you truly love playing there is no pain in playing for fun.
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2005-11-19 06:53
Always the postmodernist, I've simply changed my definition of "pro." For me, "pro" is when I get consistent paying gigs with the kitschy experimental new music ensemble I intend to try to start next year. Hopeful repertoire includes minimalist video game tunes, Sousa waltzes, faux modernism, performer-sabotaged music, famous pieces at unconscionable tempi, live classical improv to film.
Playing as a paid member of a decent orchestra isn't really something on my radar, though I'd likely accept the gig, at least for a while, should it come by (and perhaps I'll audition from time to time for fun).
Frankly, playing the same orchestral rep year after a year to an insanely high standard for crowds of mediocre interest who give standing ovations to so-so performances isn't even in my list of stuff I'd particularly want to do on clarinet. The realization that I had no real desire to "go pro" as most clarinetists would define it was quite liberating.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: BelgianClarinet
Date: 2005-11-19 16:37
This week one of the nicest remarks ever was made to me, after playing in a quintet:
Didn't you ever wanted to become a pro ?
the answer : yes, manyvmany (over 20) years ago for a short while, but ...
at the end I took a different direction (software, compressors,...) and I'm very happy with this.
I have a nice job, and the best hobby one can imagine. for this hobby I go as far as I can, and yes a professional level education would be nice, but not really possible.
Sometimes you can be a 'pro' without doing 'it' for money. Enjoy the music as much as you can, from what I read on this forum, music isn't the easiest way to earn a living in the US (here it is either).
That's no reason to quit having fun with music. Maybe the best amateur has more fun with music then a 'pro' ;-)
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Author: joannew
Date: 2005-11-19 21:41
...when it came time to register for my second year BMus classes.
After playing with a different ensemle every day of the week through junior high & high school and loving every minute, my university music dept was a big letdown, and I had no motivation to practice at all. I spent the summer after that first year reading science books while my clarinet collected dust.
So, I became a scientist by profession and a clarinettist for the love of it. Best decision I ever made!
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-11-19 23:28
I heard a few in College that I thought "there's no way in hell that they will ever get a job" - lo and behold that 2 of them got gigs.
and others quit soon after
Ya never know.......
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Author: ginny
Date: 2005-11-20 01:29
I made a living as a guitar teacher with some performances, weddings, parties and the like. However as my kids got to be school age I realised I'd never see them, as I worked teaching after school and evenings and playing on the weekends. I didn't really enjoy performing under the pressure that being paid gives, teaching was fun though.
I am much happier doing actuarial analysis with my math degree frankly and would never consider going back to music for money.
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Author: bass9396
Date: 2005-11-30 23:56
I actually haven't figured that out yet, and I probably never will.
My 2nd private teacher pointed out to me that Christina Smith-(married name I can't remember) (Atlanta SO principal flutist) was awarded the chair she sits in at age 19 (I believe) and was only taking the audition for experience. She didn't even need her performance degree to allow someone to figure out that she could play. So, I went into music ed. and have stayed in even when my friends from college are getting docs in things like multiple woodwind performance. They keep begging me to get a performance degreee, but I can't see the point at my age (27). I have a wife, a kid, a house, a job, benefits, I staff my alma mater's marching band, hold a diverse private studio, give clinics at music conferences, and adjudicate. I practice like a mad dog too. I figure somewhere in all that stuff I do, something good is happening. Besides, you never know what'll happen if you're in the right place at the right time.
Will I be able to "break out" one day and be a "pro". Sure. I have no doubt of that at all. Today? No. Is that a big deal? No.
Think of how many years Joe Robinson sat at N.C. School for the Arts and God knows where else he worked before he won the NY Phil job. He just believed he could do it, but in the meantime he was using his hard work for the greater good....teaching, playing etc.
So, moving on. Nah. But I can understand situations where you would want to (horrible experiences with the "system", sexism, racism, etc.) Not everyone would be happy teaching. Not everyone would be happy gigging until they hit that job in a major orchestra, and that's ok.
I say, if you believe that you are truly "amongst the best" then don't give up. Somebody will notice eventually, but if you don't truly feel that you are or can be "amongst the best" then you're already defeated.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-12-01 14:39
Rod,
Just curious --- how much of your time, roughly, do you spend finding, applying for, and obtaining the grants, as a percentage of your total work week, compared to actually performing?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-12-01 17:05
I know I'll never go pro, but I'll strive to make as good a sound and get my technique as good as I can in the meantime, drawing inspiration from the pros.
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Author: gatep5
Date: 2005-12-02 16:23
I didn't read all the posts in this thread, but the way I see it music is something that you do because you want to do it for yourself and for your audience. If you get some pay and recognition for it that is wonderful but it should not be your primary reason for playing. This doesn't mean, though, that I am sugguesting not to take music seriously. I have thought about going back to school for a masters degree in performance but it would only be so that I could become better in certain areas of my playing and even to branch out into more 20th century techniques.
Anyway, that is just my $0.02
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