 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: supercharged
Date: 2005-11-15 00:02
High, I'm having trouble playing my throat tone notes E, F, and G. Everything else is PERFECTLY in tune. Yet when I play those certain notes it's incredibly Flat.
I can remedy this by warming up for about 20 minutes but during the morning I have band and for the 2nd movement of Incidental Suite(1st Clar) I have to play E over and over and it' is out of tune.
I've tried everything. Lipping it up will help but still really Flat. Anyone have any tips? Many would help. Thanks.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2005-11-15 00:43
Have you checked them with a tuner? Are you certain that the other notes are IN tune? Or maybe (a possibility) the rest of the band is tuned slightly higher making your E, F, and G sound "flat" in comparison. Just wondering . . .
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: supercharged
Date: 2005-11-15 01:05
Yes I checked them with a tuner. No it's me, my band director had to go to the lenghts of today to tell me not to play that's how hard my situation is.
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Author: Tyler
Date: 2005-11-15 01:32
Go to this website about tuning the clarinet: http://www.ridenourclarinetproducts.com/tuningBb.htm
It will be worth your while to read.
-Tyler
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2005-11-15 02:14
Also note that "in tune" to A=440 or whatever your ensemble's fancy is only gives you a starting point. Tuning is a constant process of adjusting, as the same note can be horribly flat or sharp depending on context.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: Phurster
Date: 2005-11-15 03:38
Perhaps try a different mouthpiece. A standard Vandoren B45. or M15 play at a higher pitch than the "13" series. Playing one of these and then pulling out at the middle joint may help your situation. Without knowing your equipment its hard to know whether its you or the instrment. My B45 13 mouthpiece (Buffet RC prestige Clar)had a tendency to do what you describe but with a few weeks practice it came ok.
Good luck Chris.
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Author: Wes
Date: 2005-11-15 06:17
Those notes are frequently low in pitch on clarinets. A loose embouchure makes them even flatter. An expert clarinet tuner can help by checking key height, cleaning debris from holes, and undercutting the holes. By undercutting the tone holes, only the low register is raised in pitch. This was first documented in regard to H. Moennig's clarinet tuning although it must have been done long ago. Good luck!
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2005-11-15 06:39
"By undercutting the tone holes, only the low register is raised in pitch."
What does undercutting mean? what exactly is being cut? Whats if the tone holes are already undercut?
Thanks.
Post Edited (2005-11-15 06:46)
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2005-11-15 07:53
For a start, the throat notes can be difficult to play in tune - that's why clarinets usually tune to a nice long fingering (e.g., clarion 'C'). Yes, 'lipping up' might help. Or maybe you've been playing on the wrong reed strength all this time - my pitch tends to slide south if I play a reed that's too soft: to get the tone quality I want, I have to relax, and then the pitch starts to go all over the place. Mechanically, I like the idea of checking the finger-holes are clear - I was horrified the first time I actually looked properly in mine.
Have you had someone else try the instrument? Some intruments just play flat - you just can't push the joints in far enough. You might need to get a shorter barrel if this is the case - not an uncommon complaint, and not that expensive to fix. And this would affect the throat notes most (think about it: the proportional change in the length of the pipe when you pull the barrel out is greatest on the throat notes).
Some bands just tune sharp, of course. Band leader pushes instrument in fully and declares that it must be 'correct'... in fact, it might be a 442Hz instrument and they might have a technique that plays sharp, at which point anyone with a 440Hz instrument is scuppered. It can be impossible to speak out against the crowd. Tuning can be the source of much ill-will in large bands. In a wind ensemble it's simply polite to tune everyone to an instrument that's pulled out just a fraction. I seem to recall some historical incident in Europe along these lines, where there was a grand musicians' strike because orchestral pitch was rising so quickly that players were sawing inches off their pipes. This was in the days before Hertz, of course.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2005-11-15 11:11
Dear Supercharged,
To my way of thought, the throat G is a fundamental note to tuning and it should indicate with fair accuracy where the rest of the horn is playing. I would (failing the above suggestions of course) just try a different barrel. If one is not immediately available to the band, just borrow your neighbor's for a few minutes just to try it out. There are indeed other issues involved with the E and the F........but G should not be a problem note.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: vjoet
Date: 2005-11-15 12:34
Supercharged,
Have you tried adding the lowest side trill key? That might be the solution until your horn is thoroughly warmed.
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Author: Pete
Date: 2005-11-15 23:52
I did not see anywhere in the posts any information on the clarinet such as:
Brand
Model
How old
How long it's been since the instrument has seen a competent repairperson
I always get really nervous when people automatically start talking about undercutting tone holes and making modifications that cannot be reversed.
Find a competent repair person, and if possible, be there when they inspect it and tell you what they think is causing your problem. As has been noted there a lots of possible causes such as:
Bad key heights
Uneven key heights
Dirty tone holes
Incorrect pad thickness
Bad instrument-mouthpiece combination
Etc.,
Do not let any one start doing anything that cannot be reversed until all other options have been looked at. Voicing a clarinet is an art. There is nothing like feeling your instrument come alive for you after some of the mentioned issues have been dealt with.
Good luck with it. Let me know what you do and how it turns out for you.
Pete
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Author: supercharged
Date: 2005-11-16 00:28
Ok here is some information on my clarinet
It's an R13 Buffet, I've had it since 2000.
I'll try some of your suggestions but still it's really flat untill around 20 to 30 minutes into playing.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2005-11-16 01:48
Most clarinets need adjustments before they are sold, and don't get this attention.
The FIRST step is to get a good technician to check out the instrument.
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Author: Scotti
Date: 2005-11-16 03:32
I'm sorry, but most of these suggestions are missing the mark, in all likelihood.
Two reasons are most likely causing your intonation problem:
1) You are changing your embouchure in the throat register in order to get the most resonant sound. Instead of it sounding better, it's likely just more hollow and even worse, out of tune (i.e. flat)! If I had to guess, you could be dropping your tongue position
2) Your reed is too soft. You've picked out a reed that "sounds clear" and as a result, it can't sustain the pressure and can't keep the pitch up in this very week range of the clarinet.
As far as the second suggestion goes, it's a hard reality to realize that you have to change your outlook on selection of reeds. If you find this is the problem, have the courage to give a new approach a proper trial.
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Author: ClarinetRepublican
Date: 2005-11-16 03:32
I assuming that since you said everything else is perfectly in tune (which I doubt no offense) then then the 12th's above, B and C are in tune? It is normal for a buffet to have wide twelths.
What I do, is when I play Eb, and E which are flat on my Bb R13, I put the C#/G# key to raise the pitch and for F and alternate F# i will put the sliver key or the Eb/Bb side key to raise the pitch.
There really isn't much that can be done to fix those 12ths. Such is life.
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2005-11-16 07:08
Yes, don't do anything permanent at this stage! Many, many things on a clarinet can be fixed by technique and reed.
As for the instrument, it's my experience that Buffets play flatter than Selmer Paris. That doesn't mean there's anything wrong with either instrument. It might on occasion mean the drastic solution of a short barrel - and that's still an interchangeable component. I've known one or two people take this route. But get someone else to play the thing first (with their mouthpiece / reed combination).
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Author: Jhall
Date: 2005-11-16 15:54
I also have this problem. I've spent a few hours with a tuner and long tones in my warm ups. Until I am warmed up, I open one or two side keys and listen like crazy. A different barrel helped a bit.
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Author: Bnewbs
Date: 2005-11-16 19:54
I have had that problem with a few notes (throat Bb and low F, especially when I am playing cold), never heard of a throat G out of tune before. I agree that Buffets tend not to have very good intonation (the 12ths on mine are pretty bad). Selmers and yamahas usually have MUCH better intonation. My Best advise is to try opening trill keys and see. Beyond that a different mouthpiece or barrel can help, personally I recommend walter grabners mpc's and barrels, they are pricey though (about $150). That barrel however really helped even out the 12ths on my old E13 and sounds great with my selmer 10g as well.
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Author: Aussie Nick
Date: 2005-11-17 04:41
When I find my F or F# to be flat from playing loud, I will often add the side Eb/Eb key to raise it a little...
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Author: KellyA
Date: 2005-12-01 05:06
My new Tosca greenline has this problem as well. the throat E, F, & F# are flat. The low F would be flat if it were not for the extra venting key. The low E is flat as well. However, clarion G, C and up are very well in tune. I adjusted my embouchure to increase the pitch, but then any other notes are sharp.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2005-12-01 05:34
Quote:
When I find my F or F# to be flat from playing loud, I will often add the side Eb/Eb key to raise it a little... I find that I tend to flatten a bit while playing loudly too. So long as I remember, I try to tighten up the embouchure a bit when belting out a long, loud note to adjust it.
Supercharged,
Have you been able to try a shorter barrel yet? Find one that plays spot on when beginning to play, and as you warm up, and find it going sharper, pull it out a bit to keep it as in tune as possible. Much easier than trying to ENSURE that you play for 30 minutes before each performance/rehearsal. Cause the day may come when you may not get the opportunity too.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Tony Beck
Date: 2005-12-01 12:13
If you are having problems with flat low E & F, and nothing else will fix it. Send your instrument to David Spiegelthal and have him vent the bell. This will help a lot.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2005-12-01 15:46
Haven't read all the comments but I'd try some different mouthpieces.
Bob Draznik
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