 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Low_Reed
Date: 2005-11-10 04:11
There have been many discussions on this Board about bass clarinet double register keys (DRKs). As I understand it, a true DRK mechanism (some have called it "triple") has three register keyholes: the "regular" one, one for throat B-flat, and a third for low clarion notes. The telltale signs for this mechanism include 1) a keyhole on the instrument's neck (or very high on a longish upper body, as in Kohlert) and 2) TWO bridge keys across the upper-lower body joint, one coming from the right-hand pinky key cluster. The consensus seems to be that this mechanism tends to improve one's opportunities for clear and natural production of lower clarion notes, without the need for compensating embouchure adjustments.
Can anyone confirm which contra-alto and contrabass clarinets have this mechanism? I am particularly interested in the Selmer 1440 resonite contra-alto, which seems to be my dream machine (as in: I dream about getting one). My study of several 1440 photos indicates that the two telltale signs are present.
I would love to see a thorough review of the contra clarinet register key issue, similar to the bass clarinet register key review that Ken Shaw posted in mid-2004. (How about it, Ken? I understand you have more than a passing familiarity with clarinets contra...)
Thanks,
Bruce
**Music is the river of the world!**
-- inspired by Tom Waits and a world full of music makers
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-11-10 13:44
My Buescher (a.k.a Bundy a.k.a. Selmer-USA) EEb contra-alto has a true double-register vent mechanism, as does the mechanically identical Selmer-Paris rosewood EEb contra-alto and BBb contrabass. I believe the Leblanc contra-alto and contra-bass (in both the Vito straight plastic and Leblanc-Paris straight and curved metal models) also have true double-vent designs, but I'm not positive.
I had the opportunity at Clarinet Fest in the summer of 2004 to sit next to Paul Sargeant of the British Clarinet Ensemble (I might have the name wrong), he had a Selmer-Paris rosewood BBb contrabass on which he had installed TWO additional register vents, for a total of four! He said these were necessary to allow him to play easily and in tune over the full range of the instrument (and that included the high altissimo of which he is a master).
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-11-10 14:33
TKS, Dave, and anticipating comments from Ken and perhaps others, TKS also, your info matches what I've been able pick up by observation, not actual playing. I believe, for the bigger cls, its somewhat similar to the greater necessity of clarion register/octave venting as seen on baritone saxes, beyond the smallers. On modern bass and contra cls, we also have, ?un-noticed?, an altissimo vent, the 1st finger left "half-hole" [oboe terminology] which I've found highly necessary for them, but not badly needed for the soprano cls. Just thot I'd throw that in. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2005-11-10 14:47
L-R -
Every contra I've seen or played has the automatic 3-key system you describe -- separate vents for throat Bb, low clarion and high clarion. It's possible that some very old ones have 2 or 3 separate keys, like the old alto and bass clarinets. The twin vents for the clarion register are necessary on large instruments. If you try a manual-key bass, you'll find that the instrument will barely play at all if you use the wrong key.
It's possible, at least on bass clarinet, to make a compromise arrangement, with a single register vent. Leblanc made even its top of the line basses that way through the 1950s, and some entry level student basses are still made that way. However, it's definitely a compromise acoustically, and also in tone and playing qualities. I haven't actually seen the old Linton metal contra that keeps appearing on eBay. It may have a manual system or a single vent.
The problem with automatic systems is that they're complex and involve strong springs overpowering weak springs. This makes them less reliable, as well as requiring long, easily bent rods. Ideally, everyone would get used to manual double register keys. Oboists have no problem with this, after all.
Dave -
The Leblanc and Vito contras do indeed have the 3-vent system.
It's very interesting to learn about the modifications to the Selmer BBb contra. I've always thought that a third vent would be useful, particularly on the BBb instrument, and two extra ones would make the clarion very playable.
The bigger the instrument, the more critical it is to match the register vent size and location to the note being played. Terje Lerstad, a bass and contrabass specialist, has played the Leblanc EEb octo-contra-alto and BBBb octo-contrabass instruments. He wrote (on the Contrabass board, I think) that the clarion register was unplayable on either of them.
Was one of the extra vents on the British player's contra a substitute for the pinhole vent for the altissimo that's on bass clarinets? How were the extra vents operated? I can't imagine having 3 or 4 keys for the left thumb.
I think a sax-style palm key for the altissimo vent would work. I corresponded with Steve Fox about putting something like that on my Selmer rosewood Eb, or perhaps having it controlled by a split-plateau, English horn style arrangement for the left index finger. In the end, we decided it would take too much experimentation to find the vent location, and Steve doesn't like to fabricate keys.
Ken Shaw
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Author: GoatTnder
Date: 2005-11-10 14:55
>Was one of the extra vents on the British player's contra a substitute for the
>pinhole vent for the altissimo that's on bass clarinets? How were the extra
>vents operated? I can't imagine having 3 or 4 keys for the left thumb.
Could be worse. You could play bassoon, with a total of 13 keys for your thumbs...
Andres Cabrera
South Bay Wind Ensemble
www.SouthBayWinds.com
sbwe@sbmusic.org
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-11-10 15:12
Ken,
I didn't get a very long look at the 4-vent Selmer contrabass, but I believe the two additional vents were entirely new and involved a bunch of additional mechanism. I'm sure you could contact Paul directly and ask him, he was very pleasant and eager to talk about his amazing instrument.
As for altissimo half-holes, bass clarinets do have them, but contras (at least the ones I've seen) do not because the affected tonehole is not directly below the operating key as on a bass, but is remotely operated. On my Buescher contra-alto I devised a homemade altissimo vent operated by sort of a sliver key just below the l.h. index finger, which is operated by sliding the index finger down slightly just as if it were the tab on a bass clarinet key having the half-hole. I played around with a few different locations and sizes for the vent tube itself and have yet to find one that makes more than a marginal improvement in altissimo response. If I were playing more contra these days I'd continue the research, but it's real low on my priorities list right now. If anyone cares I could take some photos of the setup and post or email them.
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2005-11-10 16:21
I've seen an old Besson contrabass horn. I did not play it, and I am assuming it was a contra-bass, which is to say in Bb, rather than a bass (which we normally call the "contra-alto"), just from the overall bulk of the thing.
On this instrument, which looked like something from a Harry Crumb cartoon, there was a pair of register keys, which appeared (I wasn't able to handle it or test the mechanism) to operate three vent holes total. It also looked like a physical handful to manage - simple/Albert system, no peg, etc.
The thought of using a contra horn to spent time up in the altissimo is very amusing. Sure, it can be done, but why bother? It's like extending the range of the piccolo (octave flute) down another three or four semi-tones: it can be done but, for God's sake man, use a flute instead.
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: BassetHorn
Date: 2005-11-10 17:29
To answer an earlier question about the register mechanism equipped on Linton contras, I am assuming the question was referring to the earlier metal stencils made by the Italian firm Orsi.
On my metal Linton/Orsi Eb contrabass, here is how it works and I assume its big brother Orsi Bb contrabass is built the same way. It has the usual left thumb manual key that operates the register vent that works with clarion notes up to clarion D#, and it has a second manual left thumb key right next to the first one that you hit to close the first (lower) register vent and open a different (higher) register vent for notes from clarion E and above. You make the manual slide with your thumb and the switch could be done flawlessly with enough practice.
So no, the Linton/Orsi doesn’t have a true complex automatic mechanism operated by one left thumb key and right hand third finger, but it does have 2 separate register vents each operated by a different left thumb manual key. So I suppose the end result is the same as a true automatic mechanism.
Lastly, similar to all clarinets, it has the separate vent when you hit the throat Bb (left thumb + first finger).
Hope this helps.
Willy
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