 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Robyn0915
Date: 2005-11-09 07:40
Is it true that rubber of some mouthpieces ie)Vandoren cause discoloration of silver on Buffet clarinets?
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Author: Mike Clarinet
Date: 2005-11-09 08:19
Yes. This has happened to me. I bought an RC and Vandoren 5RV Lyre mouthpiece last year. There was a note in the Buffet case saying that some rubber mouthpieces (no names were mentioned) can discolour the silver plating. This is due to the sulphur in the rubber reacting chemically with the silver. The ligature and mouthpiece cap discoloured fairly quickly, but none of the keywork has. I have polished the mpc cap and lig several times with a soft 'silver polishing' cloth bought from the jewellers section in a department store. This has restored the silver shine nicely. As time has gone on, the rate of tarnish has decreased and I have not polished for about 6 months. It does need doing again and I will do so shortly as I have a concert soon.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2005-11-09 12:36
Just don't store anything containing rubber in your clarinet case....
Bob Draznik
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Author: hans
Date: 2005-11-09 13:20
Mike Clarinet,
It's my understanding that the silver polishing cloth "restores" the silver shine by removing some of the silver so that eventually there won't be any silver plating left. It might be better to leave the tarnish to protect the silver underneath. Or plan for a re-plating job eventually.
My Vandoren Optimum ligature and cap (both silver plated) came in a special little bag which prevents tarnish, and it has worked.
Regards,
Hans
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-11-09 13:52
Yes, Sim. to the above rec's, Silver [Ag] is a moderately "active" metal, more [obviously] so than its companions in Periodic Group 1B, Copper Cu and Gold Au {Chem. 101}. It combines slowly with oxygen [air] but more rapidly with sulfur, in [polluted] air, and here via S release from sulfur [compound] vulcanization of [particularly older] hard[ened] rubber, prob. not from other [plastic] mps tho. My suggestion is to try shielding either the silver-plated U J and L J etc, via plastic "sacking", or just the mps themselves, using plastics more impervious than polyethylenes etc. Some makers may plastic-coat the silver plate, which may protectt until worn off. I'm sure other [chem-related] posters will tell you more, Robyn. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2005-11-09 18:09
3M anti-tarnish strips are inexpensive and, in my experience, have been quite effective protecting my silver plated instruments.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: hans
Date: 2005-11-09 19:21
Jack Kissinger,
I have not see these strips in stores. Would you please advise where they can be bought? Thank you.
Regards,
hans
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Author: BobD
Date: 2005-11-09 22:06
I second the strips and have them. I'm thinking I got them at Ferrees. I agree that prevention of the tarnish in the first place is the best practice. If your lunch sack contains boiled eggs keep them away also....they are murder on silver.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Mike Clarinet
Date: 2005-11-10 08:11
My wife's Leblanc bass came with a 3M silver protector strip in the case. I managed to acquire one which did help, but it has been in the case for a while and has long-since expired. The silver polising cloth may restore the shine by abrasive method, but I don't think that occasional use would hurt. The package says for silver plate as well as solid silver. My Vandoren mpc came sealed in a plastic bag. As the rate of tarnish has slowed down over time, perhaps the thing to do is store the mpc in open air for the first 6 months or so to allow the sulphur to dissipate before keeping in the clarinet case?
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2005-11-10 12:56
(Disclaimer- I sell a silver protectant sachet)
The 3-M strips do work. They are essentially 60 lb paper coated with activated charcoal. Unfortunately the amount of charcoal coated on the strips is small. If you open and close a case regularily, or heaven forbid do not keep it closed most of the time they will absorb everything from the air which promotes silver tarnish rather quickly. The 6 month advertised usage life per strip pertains to a rather small container which is kept sealed nearly all the time. A small cloth bag filled with activated charcoal - available at tropical fish supply stores - will give you 10-1000 times the amount of activated charcoal. You may have a slight "dusting" problem unless the weave of the cloth bag is very tight, but minor at most. There are other available bulk and packaged solid phase materials that remove sulphur and other tarnish promoting chemicals found in the air which are more efficient and more long lasting than activated charcoal however.
L. Omar Henderson
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2005-11-10 13:29
Omar, how do these products compare with activated charcoal "odour eaters", used as insoles of shoes?
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2005-11-10 14:18
I got my 3M strips from Woodwind and Brasswind but, after my recent experiences with them, I hate to recommend them to anyone for anything. It took over two months and several phone calls and emails to get them to ship and they still haven't completely filled my order. They claim it was their warehouse consolidation but I think it goes beyond that to a terribly kludgy system. Initially, they shipped half my original order, though their packing slip said all but a couple of items had shipped. The only way they could "correct" the error was to process all the unsent items as "returns" from me and then reship. I'd hate to be their auditor.
A Google search on "3M silver protector strips" without the quotes will turn up quite a few hits. It's instructive to read the reviews for Music123 and WWBW (essentially the same company) at Pricegrabber. Music123 actually has more negatives than positives! IMNSHO, you order from them at your own risk. Fluteworld shows a slightly lower price. Omar's solution would probably be even less costly.
Omar, I think "dusting" could potentially be a serious problem, even in small amounts. Is there a product in solid blocks small enough to fit the accessory section of a clarinet case that might be available?
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-11-10 14:40
Good comments, Omar, are there other aDsorbents, such as silica gel or sulfur-reactive compounds, that would be similarly effective, and also "non-destructive " to our cls? Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2005-11-13 19:54
Not quite about Buffet and Silver-plated keys (BTW how do I know offhand if my horn's keys are nickled or silver-plated?), just an observation from the field:
My clarinet is roughly 50 years old and eg the G# key and thumb ring were gray of wear and I thought the plating was simply worn off. Chrome or silver polish didn't do any good.
Yesterday Dah Missus went on her weekly shopping spree and came back with a fingernail buffer (looks like the doctor's Aaaah! tongue spatula with four different strengths of sandpaper glued on) she got somewhere and meant that if it were good for finger nails it might be good for keys too.
It was. Keys are shiny again. Then I tried it with a toothmarked mouthpiece. Easy. Start with coarse and work up to the shiner and it looks like new.
Amazing what tools our wives have in their purses.
--
Ben
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Author: BobD
Date: 2005-11-13 20:54
Once you see silver plated keys you'll remember what they looked like...compared to nickel. Efforts to describe the look fail.
Bob Draznik
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2005-11-13 21:23
When I compare silver cutlery to steel cutlery I guess I know what you mean.
Hmm. Maybe it's silver after all?
Did the Martin Bros. put silver on their horns?
--
Ben
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Author: Shorthand
Date: 2005-11-13 21:35
Keys can always be replated.
Nickel is more grey in color and more mirror-like in luster - almost indistungishable from chrome. Silver is whiter in color and somewhat more satin in luster.
A tangential quesiton: why does noone chrome plate clarinet keys? God knows, the plating wouldn't wear off.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-11-14 00:17
No-one chrome plates clarinet keys as it's a horrible metal to work with - it blunts tools and is too slippery to the touch and for fraising tools, files, drills, etc. to cut into, and will crack if keys get bent. It's worse than nickel plate.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2005-11-14 00:27
Ideally the plating is a material that "gets married" with the substrate.
--
Ben
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2005-11-14 03:04
(Disclaimer- I sell a silver tarnish inhibitor sachet)
The activated charcoal sold in tropical fish supply stores - to my investigations - only comes in the granular form. It is coconut shell waste that they heat to high temperature without air and forms charcoal. This form of charcoal is called "activated" because it is has a very porous structure and the carbon binds many chemicals very tightly thus removing them from potentially reacting with your silver keys. This carbon binds a number of different chemicals from the air - sulphur being one of them - but it has a finite mass binding quotient based on the amount of carbon present. A high thread count little bag e.g. 300-400 count cotton will not allow the carbon dust to get out (no one will miss a little square snipped from the corner of your bed linens) !!! An alternative is porous mylar.
Newer solid phase chemical air purification materials are made to have differential affinities for different classes of chemicals so that they are more efficient at removing them but also are not "poisoned" by other more prevalent chemicals in the environment. Various mixtures of these materials are used for specific removal of certain types of air pollutants. Most of this technology is proprietary to several manufacturers but can be purchased in bulk relatively cheaply.
L. Omar Henderson
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Author: Fred
Date: 2005-11-14 03:07
What was the plating on the Selmer Soloists? Wasn't silver or nickel . . .
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Author: tom bassclarinet
Date: 2015-09-02 23:34
And it happened to me too with my brand new Buffet Crampon Tosca bass clarinet. After 2 months the discoloration suddenly started at the keys of the upper part. Next to that part I kept my mouthpieces, the new original Buffet and a new Selmer Focus, with a cloth between them. I thought this would be sufficient, but helas. Since then I keep my mouthpieces in a separate place in the case, away from the clarinet.
When I bought the Buffet, I also tried a brand new Selmer Privilege bass clarinet. But when I opened the case, the Selmer looked terrible. The silver plating was discoloured everywhere, especially on the beaker. The music store took it immediately to their workshop for cleaning. And the Selmer had a Selmer mouthpiece in the case of course. I don't know for sure if the Selmer mouthpiece caused the trouble, but it is remarkable.
And thank all of you for the active charcoal tips.
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Author: James S
Date: 2015-09-03 11:13
I wonder if Zinner blanks cause discoloration... Anyone wanna weigh in?
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2015-09-03 16:55
Tarnish-prevention bags for silver utensils are sold in jewelry stores. They work very well for my silverware.
eBay almost always has roll-ends of this cloth, which go for very low prices. I cut a rectangle the size of my case opening and lay it over my clarinets. It's worthwhile to cut with pinking shears to keep the cut end from unraveling.
Ken Shaw
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Author: GenericClarinet129
Date: 2024-10-29 04:53
Sorry for reviving an old thread, but would storing the rubber mouthpiece in a plastic zip-lock bag within the case prevent tarnishing of the keys?
Post Edited (2024-10-29 05:44)
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Author: m1964
Date: 2024-10-29 06:37
It probably would. However, I do not understand why the silver key tarnishing is such a BIG PROBLEM.
It is very easy to remove using a polishing cloth should you need to sell the instrument. Otherwise, it has zero effect on the instrument.
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2024-10-29 11:32
The extent to which the sulfur emitted by rubber, or the hydrogen sulfide in the air are corrosive to metal, is directly related to the levels of humidity. Instrument cases can easily become damp inside and thereby conducive to electrolysis.
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: ACCA
Date: 2024-10-29 13:11
yes. this happened to me. I kept a new Selmer Concept mouthpiece with my recently overhauled Selmer 10G- the keys turned blackish over a few weeks.
...actually it looks kinda cool I think, lends a bit of street cred to the horn which suits it well.
good luck!
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2024-10-29 19:40
Just heep the mouthpiece in a ziploc bag and there is no problem. Rubber bands in the case can also cause this.
Tony F.
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