 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: hans
Date: 2005-11-05 18:12
In today's Toronto Star newspaper, there is a description of the new Lincoln pickup truck. One of the features listed is "genuine ebony" trim in the passenger compartment.
IMO most people who buy these trucks are unlikely to care whether it is simulated wood (i.e., plastic) or the real thing, or to be able to tell the difference. Thus, it seems like a terrible waste of grenadilla wood, in addition to increasing demand for it - and consequently the price of clarinets.
Hans
Post Edited (2005-11-05 18:14)
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Author: Shorthand
Date: 2005-11-05 18:27
Its probably just a veneer, so its pretty wood-efficient. In addition, I'm actually looking forward to the days when raw materials issues force clarinets to all be made of synthetic (or greenline-like) materials.
AFAIK David S. is really happy to have found one of the few pro-level plastic bodied instruments in his Kohlert Bass. For personal use, I'd prefer a Bundy contra to a Selmer rosewood for the same reason. (Though the Selmer rosewood contras are incredibly beautiful instruments, especially on stage, but they do deserve silver keywork - has anyone had one replated sliver?)
Honestly, when is Buffet going to move the greenline materials into the larger instruments? I thought they formed it in billet presses and then machined it like normal wood - do they just not have large enough presses?
Finally, the most common vehicle owned by US millionaires is the Ford F150. In the US, the upper class drives boring cars that blend in for the most part (the show-offs are more upper middle class - same income range, but different values.) Truck owners are no more or less disciriminating or intelligent than sedan owners, they just have differnet needs. Finally, for a large, quiet luxury vehicle with a soft ride and lots of room, a truck is generally the cheapest way to go these days - they're much much cheaper to build than cars these days.
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2005-11-05 20:02
Paying big bucks (or little ones, for that matter) for a pick-up truck is stupid. They DO cost a whole lot less to build than a car with decent suspension and structure; but they cost no less to purchase.
In the case of the Lincoln Blackwood: you get a Ford F150 with a whole bunch of high-mark up stuff, but its still just a pick-up TRUCK. It has a live axle rear suspension that is "improved" over the Ford Model T in that it is cheaper to build. It is tall and tippy; it is obstructive; it has poor braking, roadholding and acceleration.
And it wastes Blackwood.
Bob Phillips
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2005-11-05 20:30
Bob Phillips wrote:
> Paying big bucks (or little ones, for that matter) for a
> pick-up truck is stupid.
In your humble opinion, right?
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2005-11-05 20:47
We don't want to discuss alternative lifestyles. ;-)
Fact is that the "ebony wood" used in these trucks is quite probably nothing that's suited for building instruments - car builders usually prefer wood with extraordinary grain, irregularities, branches etc - everything an instrument builder probably hates.
And now guess what many railroad ties are made of...
--
Ben
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Author: larryb
Date: 2005-11-05 21:12
are the Blayman stands standard or optional on these Lincolns?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-11-05 22:02
Is 'Green Line' reconstituted grenadilla strong enough to be used on low C basses?
It hasn't got the same inherent strength and is more brittle than grenadilla - and probably just as brittle as Bakelite.
Even 'Green Line' bodied oboes crack through expansion.
And I'm with Bob Phillips on the whole 'trendy' utility vehicle arguement.
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Author: Kel
Date: 2005-11-05 22:06
"...the most common vehicle owned by US millionaires is the Ford F150."
Is that what they call a "Texas Cadillac"?
Post Edited (2005-11-05 22:06)
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-11-05 23:33
Shorthand,
The Kohlert bass clarinet in question is made of hard rubber, not plastic (but your point is well taken and this detail doesn't change the premise that an instrument doesn't have to be wood, to sound good).
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2005-11-06 15:15
Mark,
The sociology and technology of pickup trucks is distant from clarinets.
But, my opinion on pickup trucks is a professional opinion. I'll provide information on this subject off-line if contacted.
Bob Phillips
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Author: BobD
Date: 2005-11-06 15:31
Black trim in a Lincoln is a bad joke....for openers. What next, a derringer holster. But,hey, what are railroad ties made of today? Used to be creosote soaked cypress? Lincoln pickup truck owners could care less about what clarinet players think....they only want to hog the road.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2005-11-06 15:52
BobD wrote:
> Lincoln
> pickup truck owners could care less about what clarinet players
> think....they only want to hog the road.
Well, considering that ebony and grenadilla are two different species of wood (though it is a common mistake to think grenadilla is ebony):
This has strayed way too far from clarinets and is now into marketing psychology - far away from most of our core competencies.
Mark C. (who works as agency in the Ford IT department but doesn't happen to drive a pickup or Lincoln - but believes that if you want to, you should be free to do so. With possible social or financial implications ...)
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2005-11-06 17:43
...maybe the trim is made of ebonite?
<hides behind screen>
--
Ben
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Author: mnorswor
Date: 2005-11-06 22:34
I'd like to hear a response to the question of making a bass clarinet from Greenline material. With the thicker walls of a bass, this would seem to be a good idea. Can we get an answer from Francois if he's watching??
--Michael
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2005-11-06 22:38
> I'd like to hear a response to the question of making a bass clarinet from
> Greenline material.
More generally, is there a (beyond supersition) a difference between greenline and (good) hard rubber or ebonite?
--
Ben
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Author: Shorthand
Date: 2005-11-07 06:45
There used to be some discussion here about it, I thought in the equipment seciont but i couldn't find it. However the bottom line of that article is that the wall material is about 1/10,000th of the sound. (That's -50 dB.)
A metal clarinet and a hardwood clarinet of the exact same internal dimensions should be nearly indistinguishable to the human ear. (The ear CAN cover that many orders of magnitude, actually closer to 8 or so, but not at the same time (each order of magnitude is 10 dB or one factor of 10 - think about what you can hear under an 60 dB movie or car ride, about 30-40 db, so figure the ear can cover -20-30 dB of dynamic range at any given moment. Therefore -50 dB should be beyond our ability to hear.)
If you get a material that has a similar speed of sound to hardwood and can form it with more or less the same surface roughness, the two should be acoustically identical.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-11-07 13:58
I've said this before more than once, but having played some of Jim Lande's fabulous metal clarinets side-by-side with my best wood ones, I would be very doubtful of anyone's ability to tell them apart (body material-wise) by the sound heard by an audience.
Similarly redundant, a few years ago I performed identical overhauls (with some modifications) to two Kohlert bass clarinets of similar vintage (late-50s to 1960s, I believe) -- one had a two-piece grenadilla body and the other had a one-piece hard-rubber ('ebonite') body. The instruments played as identically as any two instruments I've ever played. I don't believe even the performer could have identified them by sound or feel, much less the audience.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2005-11-07 15:18
Making larger cross-section "billets" of greenline material is not as simple as it may appear to be. My personal concerns would involve getting the mix and cure to the center properly and maintaining straightness. Also, the larger molds aren't exactly cheap.
Bob Draznik
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