 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Bill
Date: 2005-11-05 16:17
I wasn't able to find this specific topic in the archives.
Self-taught, I never learned to tongue and have simply "stopped" the airflow (I must admit, to darn good effect, lo, these many years) to create my staccato. Like thousands of momentary asphyxiations.
My teacher is trying to get me to learn tonguing, and I feel this is actually harder for me than my (own initiated) switch to double-lip 12 years ago.
Touching my tongue to the reed (a very unfamiliar experience for me!) causes me to lose any control over squeaking. The edges of my mouth go all crazy. And the grunting "tut-tut-tut's" of the sound are maddening (if you can hear them above the squeaking).
I'd love some encouragement. Thank God I'm only 46. This is gonna take time.
Bill.
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Author: Aaron
Date: 2005-11-05 16:27
another julie article that helped me a lot......
http://www.gleblanc.com/bell/spring2002/storys/with_surprising.cfm
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2005-11-05 16:58
Hey Bill,
Learning tonguing, properly, is difficult. One prof. I recall had likened it to potty training.
Start just having the tongue on the reed. Then start to blow. Release the tongue from the reed. Tonguing is really just taking the tongue off the reed, NOT hitting the reed with the tongue.
Try to get Daniel Bonade's "Clarinetist's Compendium." There is a ton of great information in a small pamphlet. It may only be available from Leblanc directly, I'm not sure.
Good luck. That will be lots of hard, worthwhile, work!
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2005-11-05 21:13
My teacher has me practice with this technique; keeping a constant airflow, touch the reed just enough to dampen the sound. You should still feel the reed buzzing, but without generating any audible sound.
Tongue position will make a real difference in facility, my placement requires the tip out the tongue UNDER the reed.
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Author: muse432
Date: 2005-11-05 23:22
well,
In my case, ive never tongued that way,... though if my old teachers would of known I would of been Killed..ive always done it the ''ILLEGAL WAY''
which is by your throat!.. and I always double lip..trully ive tried that tongue thing but it just sounds to dirty..and hey! lve been playing for 20 years. and currently playing in a military Band. so my advice is play your instrument the best way you think it sounds!..dont let any one tell you how it should be played.
The above statements are the thoughts of an amateur clarinetist. So if you think the same as me, just remember, "Great minds think alike." (or is it "Idiots seldom differ?" I can't remember which one applies here . . .)
Post Edited (2005-11-05 23:38)
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Author: Alexis
Date: 2005-11-06 01:54
I can't really agree with what muse432 says... (even though I suspect the tone may be slightly irreverant!)
Just keep your airstream fast and constant. It sounds like your embouchure and air are reacting sympathetically to the movement of your tongue which means squeaks and grunts. Try playing long notes and move your tongue around your mouth without disturbing your embouchure, to see if you can gain some independence with your tongue.
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Author: ken
Date: 2005-11-06 03:53
Here's an outline of the method I teach and the way I was taught by primary teachers: Ed Riley, Mel Warner and Chuck West. Disclaimor: As you would consult a doctor before taking and/or experimenting with any new medication I strongly urge those studying privately to first discuss any concepts written here with their teacher before making any changes.
The "Articulation Stroke" is divided into three (3) parts:
1) Movement of the tongue to close the reed (articulation that "releases" or is an "interruption" of built-up air pressure and NEVER referred to as "stopping" the air stream).
2) A building up of air pressure on the back of the tongue
3) Release of the tongue, the reed and built-up air pressure
"Varied Articulation" consists of five (5) parts:
1) Speed and minimal motion of tongue
2) Finger/tongue coordination
3) Degree of tongue pressure used to close the reed
4) Degree of taper of the articulated note (legato, full value, staccato, etc.)
5) Amount of air pressure build up behind the tongue
Exercise: Play descending 2-octave major scales at mf between ¼=72-80 (C6 or high C to C4 or low C, then repeat on B nat, etc) two times each; 1) slurred, 2) legato tongue, 3) full value tongue, 4) staccato tongue. First time slurred concentrating on fingers precisely centering and covering the tone holes. Second time, applying a light (or slight taper) legato tongue [on tonguing portion, strict attention must be placed on combining an even and supported air stream with precise finger-tongue coordination.] Thirdly, twice through applying a "full value" tongue-articulation. Fourth, twice through applying a pointed or staccato tongue (not too short or choked; a short note still retains its basic characteristic: it is resonant, in tune and in context with the phrase. And, that's orchestra short note length, not concert band short.
The aim of this exercise is precise execution of tongue motion versus finger coordination. Add, key concept the player "releases" the tongue FROM the reed and not "strike" the reed WITH the tongue. Practice everyday (or each session) for 3 months. If performed correctly air stream tends to better coordinate with the movement of the tongue and create the proper tapering effect. After becoming comfortable and as fingers and tongue become memory reflexive the exercise can be sped up but no faster then ¼=108. Note: this is but ONE articulation stroke of many; once the fundamental is mastered more attention can be given to increasing the quality of each note and varied articulation stroke.
For maximum coordination between fingers and tongue, always move the finger(s) to the next note to be played immediately after the tongue interrupts the air stream and the reed has closed. Simply stated, the finger(s) move to the next note in the "space between" an articulation.
Common problems that can be alleviated using this method:
1) Eliminates a too short articulated note and too long an articulated space
2) Fingers will not fall behind the tongue in a faster passage
3) Improved note quality, pitch and tone on an articulation stroke
4) Reduces instances of the air stream dictated by the movement of the tongue which produces a poor tapering effect
5) Increases consistency and speed of air stream v/r Ken
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Author: Bill
Date: 2005-11-06 13:36
Ken - thanks so much for posting these instructions - much appreciated. Thanks everyone for your thoughts and encouragement.
Bill.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2005-11-06 13:43
Dear Muse,
I've been running across more of this lately. I would only ask if quick staccatos are a problem. For instance, if you can play the lick in the last mvt of Beethoven #4 at 144 beats per minute with all the notes separated, then you need to teach me how to do that !!! Usually one has to incorporate some form of conventional double or even triple tonguing to achieve the articulation of many standard Romantic works let alone the pieces written more recently.
Just checking.......
....................Paul Aviles
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Author: BobD
Date: 2005-11-06 15:41
Sad to say, "throat tongueing" is a no-no in the clarinet community, like wearing white socks with a tux. From my personal perspective tongueing is an affront to clarinet playing in general and to be avoided by all except symphonic and concert band players who are forced to use it. Better to spend your time developing your vibrato.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Bill
Date: 2005-11-06 19:06
Intreresting, the whole topic of the "trained" clarinetist and the Jimmy Giuffre, pick-it-up-and-play-it sort of clarinetist. I am the latter, but playing Brahms, not jazz, and taking lessons (with less than stellar results). I think tonguing is probably the first step the "trained" clarinetist takes. For the home-schooled crowd, it just doesn't come naturally.
I stay with what I love about the instrument, and I play as often as physically possible. That's the best I can give to it, the closest I can come to being a true player.
Bill.
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Author: Wes
Date: 2005-11-06 21:34
The above is very interesting and good advice. One should be able to learn the various ways of single tonguing articulation, I believe, as well as the breath stopped articulation, common for oboe players. In addition, one can learn several ways of double tonguing, useful in different scenarios. Good luck!
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Author: ken
Date: 2005-11-06 21:42
Bill, a "true" artist is defined by love of craft and measure of devotion to that craft; not by skill level, number of plaques on the wall or Benjis in the bank.
You are therefore a "true player" as you are. v/r Ken
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2005-11-07 03:31
I don't recall the beginners I taught having much problem learning tonguing.
I think the problem for the obstinate throat-stoppers is that they have spent so much time NOT tonguing, like trying to fall over after you have spent years learning not to.
The throat stopping routine means that there is a large buffer of air between the air-stopping area (back of mouth) and the sound initiation area (reed).
This means that articulation can never be clean and fast.
fir beginning a note, after the throat block has been opened, the player has to build up air pressure in the oral cavity before the reed has a hope of vibrating. That takes time!
At the end of a note, after the player blocks the throat, and the note carries on until the residual air pressure within the oral cavity has declined. Once again, a slow and messy end to the note.
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Author: muse432
Date: 2005-11-07 14:35
HI,
To Paul Aviles,
yes ive actually played that piece several times... ans i like it very much and yes i could honestly inform you that I have no problem playing it at 144 beats per minute. Ive actually played faster but i do have to admit it demands more out of the player and practice. and also to those who say that throat tonguing sounds ''sloppy'' speak for your selfs. not every throat tonguer sounds that way. look at me for example, I could assure you I sound as clean as any regular tonguer. I have no problem playing in constant staccato either, I do it clean and in the perfect manner that you could possibly achive. Its funny though how everyone makes throat tonguing so ''sinful'' and wrong. My theory is that is a player is doing well with it or any of his methods he or her should ''stick with it''. Ive done well my self and played even in the New York philarmonic and I have gotten many complements for my techniques and my sound and no one notices my way of tonguing.
so to conclude, I say if your method works and brings foward an audience then ''STICK WITH IT'' why should anyone change their ways of playing just because the community says or thinks its wrong. Following the crowd doesn't always guarantee you a success. Remember everything turns into a matter of opinions.
Post Edited (2005-11-07 15:14)
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Author: Bill
Date: 2005-11-07 16:18
I do wonder how much harder tongueing is for the double-lip player (such as myself).
I feel like I'd have a better shot at tongueing if I were single-lip.
I'm anxious to learn to do it, but I think it's hard as hell. So much of the pedagogical etudes (Kell, Jean-Jean, etc.) seem directed toward developing it.
Bill.
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2005-11-07 18:01
Yes, Bill, tonguing is more difficult when using double lip embouchure.
FWIW, Albanian clarinetists (usually those of the "folk" variety) use the "throat" version of tonguing. I myself simply can't do it cleanly, even in Albanian folk music! It does make a different sound, though...
Katrina
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Author: gatep5
Date: 2005-11-07 18:37
What I think is not addressed is... does the tounge press the reed into the tip of the mouthpiece to stop its vibration, or is it a better practice to just stop the vibration solely with touching your tounge to the reed?
The first way, you actually stop the airflow as well as the reed vibration... the latter, the air does not stop flowing but the sound would because of the tounge being on the reed.
If anyone has any insight to this it would great help me. Thanks in advance!
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2005-11-07 19:50
I think that not stopping the airflow means not to stop blowing, even though the air has nowhere to go.
The "flow" through the clarinet is stopped, but the flow from the lungs up to the tongue is not...
Katrina
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