 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Ah Clem
Date: 2005-10-01 00:02
I have been searching the forum for references to reed hardness and have found a lot of good information, but I do have some "Gerber League" questions:
People seem to gravitate towards harder reeds. As a rank beginner (three months now) I seem to do best on 1-1/2's (Rico or Rico Royale). I have tried a couple of Van Doren #2's, but found them so hard that it was difficult to get a sound out that was not plague with a lot of air noise. Most of this, I am sure, is due to my being very green at this (hopefully I am green and not the reeds).
What are the advantages of a harder vs. a softer reed?
Is it easier to get some sounds out of a harder reed?
I have read that the great tenor sax player, Coleman Hawkins, practised with really hard reeds until he got the sound he wanted out of his horn. His sound was very bold. I realize that a tenor sax and a clarinet are two very different instruments, but does a harder reed result in a bolder sound?
(It does not in my case-I get a much clearer, bolder sound from the weaker reed.)
I am using a Selmer "Goldentone 3" mouthpiece and a used-overhauled Selmer/Bundy clarinet.
Thank you all in advance.
Ah Clem
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2005-10-01 00:27
I share your experience. Best results so far with a 1-1/2 Vandoren on a Yamaha 4C mpc. (I'm glad I ain't the only one...)
A 2-1/2 Vandoren would produce a "muffy" sound and easily tired jaw muscles. (I'm not a chewing-gummer and have an overbite, so there).
I guess that over time (when my muscles build up) I can move to a harder reed, as it seems to produce the upper register tones better - at least with my mouth/mpc/reed combo. (FWIW I'm playing roughly a month now)
All I can say is - those soft reeds are made because there's obviously a demand for them. Different players, different mouths, different needs...don't hurry, don't worry.
--
Ben
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2005-10-01 00:52
One thing lots of people do is not take into account the mouthpiece. Not to mention it's a bit of a personal matter as well.
While rico and rico royale 1 - 1.5 is certainly fairly light (no matter WHAT mouthpiece I can think of), if that's what it takes, use it. Eventually (after really building up your embouchure) you'll find that your reeds are hard to control. Your clarion notes will really POP OUT, and it'll be dificult for you to start a note at mp or p dynamic. Or maybe you'll play a B just above the register and it'll squeak and be dificult to get out clear. That is one (just one) sign that maybe it's time for a harder reed.
I would buy and hold onto a box of rico royale (or rico) size 2. Every other week or so, take a reed (you can use the same one and try it every week), and see if it's working for you. When it works, use those and toss those remaning 1.5ers.
Rico Royale are a great reed to start on. I don't know anyone that continues to use them throughout their lifetime (on Bb clarinet), but I know PLENTY of people that used it as a stepping stone.
One thing you might consider is stepping into a good student mouthpiece. The one I've tried and liked is Clark Fobes Debut. This mouthpiece I think ultimately seemed comfortable with about a size 2.5 to 3 vandoren V12.
As for the differences a softer/harder reed can make, too soft a reed tends to make it very easy to play the lower chalemeau notes (no register key and down the clarinet), however as you go higher and higher, it tends to get flatter and flatter and also it 'wants' to overblow and squeak up a twelfth easier. Too hard of a reed and while the clarion might come out nicely and the altissimo as well, the lower notes will be VERY airy and you won't be able to make as much of a difference in the dynamics in any notes without a LOT of effort on the embouchure.
In my opinion, a harder reed sounds a little "sweeter" than a softer reed, but at the same time, you have to find a size that allows you that dynamic expression without too much strain on your embouchure. Different mouthpieces tend to have a "sweet spot" strengthwise based on their dimensions, and this is usually the recommended reed size. I myself, tend to like a SLIGHTLY softer reed than recommended (about 1/4 size softer than whatever the 'average' is). That just seems right with the amount of pressure I like to use on my embouchure.
So, I hope I've helped to confuse you a little bit on the debates and thoughts on reed 'hardness'. If you have any more questions, ask away!
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
Post Edited (2005-10-01 00:54)
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Author: Chris Hill
Date: 2005-10-01 04:44
You also should be aware that the reeds are not numbered the same way. A Vandoren #2 is at least as strong as a Rico #2 1/2. When I've had 1st year students in the past, I've kept them on Rico or Mitchell Lurie reeds for that year.
Chris
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Author: Ken Mills
Date: 2005-10-01 21:32
Dear Ah Clem; Two mouthpieces that use a soft reed: Selmer believes in the soft reed so their clarinets are made higher pitched; their standard mpc is the C85 with a facing of only 1.05mm, relatively closed but with a severe facing (short facing) while other mouthpieces have a really open facing that only gradually curves away, such as the Vandoren 5JB. But take two mouthpieces with identical facings while one has a shallow depth in the chamber tip against the wall opposite the window: it will drive harder reeds for air pressure reasons. I don't know how you can experiment with these combinations unless you go to a clarinet exhibit or show, or you live somewhere good. A good sound will help you stick with it, so will Pete Fountain who uses a 2 1/2, not that soft. But he did not live in a good place. Yikes! Sorry for that reference to current events. The Best, Ken Mills
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-10-01 22:05
Unless you are elderly, the 1 1/2 is probably too soft. #2 may get you a much better tone. However, as Chris pointed out, the vandoren will be harder than the rico ( 1 1/2 vandoren would be like a rico #2 if they even exist, not sure as I always start students on mitchel lurie #2's at least.
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Author: Ah Clem
Date: 2005-10-05 03:14
Thank you all for the information. That is exactly the type of thing I was looking for!
Ah Clem
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2005-10-05 04:48
Ah Clem,
Take a look at the side of your reed and mouthpiece. You will see that the mouthpiece curves away from the reed as you move from the ligature out to the tip.
The length and width of that gap --as well as the shape-- determines how hard it is to press the reed against the mouthpiece while you are playing. In addition, the inside of the mouthpiece helps determine how the reed "bounces" off of the mouthpiece while playing.
The lower lip presses the reed closer to the mouthpiece facing as you form your embochure. Where you apply presssure, how much pressure, the shape of the mouthpiece facing curve determine and the three dimensional shape of the reed and the clamping of the ligature all affect how the reed responds to the clarinet's bore --as fingered.
Ideally, the reed will instantly accomodate to changes in the length and shape of the clarinet's bore as you change fingerings.
In real life, the reed won't come to equilibrium vibration instantly; and it will add its own influence to the sound production (understatement here!).
A harder reed will want to vibrate at a higher natural frequency than a softer reed. We, as players, make the reed match the fingered shape of the clarinet's bore. A "bad" reed/mouthpiece/tuning barrel, clarinet combination can take off and do something awful (squeak). A stiffer reed is less likely to do so.
Thus, a stiff reed gives the player a better chance to make the system do what s/he wants it to do. In this context, "stiff" is in relationship to all the variables glossed over in the previous lists.
I think that you will find as you gain experience, embochure strength and facility with the instrument that you will find, as we all have, that you will"get better results with a stiff-enough reed. "Stiff enough" will change dramatically as you change mouthpieces, though.
Longer facings: stiffer reeds.
Wider openings: softer reed.
As mentioned by others earlier in this thread, stiffer reeds give better results in the clarion and altissmo registers. The low register is less demanding --because the reed --even a soft reed-- can easily meet the demands of the low frequency notes.
Bob Phillips
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Author: sarnia
Date: 2005-10-05 08:18
Ah Clem /tictactux & Alexi
What a decent subject to read about,
I also struggled with tone production as the first two writers did, so after buying a selection of reeds :-
Rico Royal. Vandoren 2 .5 down to 1 .5, the free air eventually stopped and a decent note cometh fourth!!!.
I now only get on well with Rico Royal 1 .5 (just very slightly shaved on the sides for about 1/8" in from the edge )
The last 4 reeds I took out of the box are all going very well....
The next logical step according to our learned gentlemen is the matter of
matching facings on the different typs of mouthpiece to the hardness of the reed,
From what has been quoted the facing detail of certain models does not suit certain hardess'es of Reeds Thus the squeeks ,leaking air ,and none production of sound,,
If any one can help with matches, it would be an interesting table for the beginner ,( who lives nowhere near a teacher ) to have in his or her possession..
I only have a Buffet E11, with a 5RV mouthpiece, and it ,and I , seem to work nicely on the 1.5 to 2 reed strength .. Have I arrived at what is the norm for this commbination ????? Will I be able to increase the reed hardness on this mouthpiece, or will a change of mouthpiece be needed,,,
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2005-10-05 08:54
Sarnia wrote:
> Have I arrived at what is the norm for this commbination ?????
As far as a "norm" is concerned - all you probably get is a recommendedation in the sense of "when in doubt buy reed x for mpc y". Being an individual, your mileage may vary considerably.
And: We do not arrive. We are subject to continuous change:
Yesterday I discovered that my good #1.5 Vandoren is not perfect any more. It makes a rustling sound and easily jams the opening. It may be worn or it may be too soft for the mood I was in yesterday. It just wasn't an #1.5 day...
The #2.5 which felt very "airy" and tiresome before appeared to be much better then. I guess I'm gonna shop for some #2's then...maybe it's a sign of improvement, of change at least?
--
Ben
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2005-10-05 12:34
One advantage of a harder reed is pitch stability(if you consider that an advantage) Soft reeds are of course more flexible in general. (That is also an advantage at time especially if you are playing Klezmer music. ) Pitch stability is good especially in the higher notes. If you are leaping up to a high note the pitch will "lock" in better with a harder reed. You just let the air do the work.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2005-10-05 18:30
Sarnia,
I have a 5RV, but don't use it as my primary mouthpiece. Yesterday, when I was trying desperately to get my back-up horn working for a rehearsal, I put the 5RV on my horn and found it ok with a Mitchell-Lurie Premium 4-1/2 and terrible with a ML 2-1/2.
So, we're all different --and, as the gentleman said, in different phases of our search.
Bob Phillips
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Author: sarnia
Date: 2005-10-06 09:19
AhClem/ Bob?Ben?Alexi etal..
Excellent replys to the questions,, "each M/p .. sweet spot , strength wise" yes this is what I must endevour to establish,It will take a little! time obviously but I should be able to move to a harder reed as
things are developed.. I did find a advertising leaflet that was with a 13
Vandoren M/p Which say's the 5RV = Medium short Facing....11.6
Recommended reed strength =3 / 3.5 / 4 /
& Tip Opening :- Medium to Medium Closed 109 to 106.5
Also a similar note to that which was mentioned earlier...
Tip Opening Long Facing = Stronger reed Closed M/p = stronger reed
" Short Facing = Softer reed Open M/p = softer reed
It looks from this Info. that this M/p is in the mid range therefore a mid range reed strength will work OK 2 to 3.5.....
Does this sound correct???
any replies much appreciated.....
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2005-10-06 09:49
sarnia wrote:
> It looks from this Info. that this M/p is in the mid range therefore a mid
> range reed strength will work OK 2 to 3.5.....
After some trying around fore and back I went to the music shoppe and bought two reeds of each 1.5 through 3.5. Good thing when you don't have to buy a ten-pack each time...
I might end up throwing away some of them rather unused, but now I can go and try which one works best.
(the horn I bought came with a Goldentone #3 which I didn't try yet but will check it out with this test range of reeds)
--
Ben
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Author: Ah Clem
Date: 2005-10-06 17:14
Ben,
I too, am using a Goldentone 3. I am very interested in your findings!
Thank you all for the continuing flow of information on this topic!
Ah Clem
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2005-10-06 17:26
Ben,
Good tactic. Keep your reed assortment around for later experiments with other mouthpieces.
When you get a chance, get another ligature like the one you normally use. With all this gear, you can set up two complete mouthpieces and quickly swap them. That way, the difference you experience is confined to the reed/mpc combo. You don't have to take the time to change reeds while doing your comparisons.
Remember, too that you can stiffen the reed by sliding it down on the mpc a bit to expose a thin arc of black beyond the tip of the reed.
Have fun experimenting
Bob Phillips
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Author: Ah Clem
Date: 2005-10-11 15:20
I just tried a Rico 2.5 this moring, for the second time (the first time, about a month ago, I could hardly get a sound out of it). This time it played quite easily, and it seemed to assist greatly with regard to crossing the break (less hesitation before the reed started to vibrate in the upper register).
I am going to continue to work towards harder reeds-I have a couple of Van Doren #2's that I couldn't play before, I will try those next.
Thank you all again for your advice!
Ah Clem
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2005-10-17 20:53
Ah Clem wrote:
> I too, am using a Goldentone 3. I am very interested in your findings!
My very short, very unscientific and very lay-like experience with the G3 (compared to a Yamaha 4C)
- The Yamaha is darker, more "oboic", a bit easier to play without hissing or airing, probably more suited to classical music.
- The G3 is brighter, more joyful, but requires a different embouchure than the Yamaha. Sounds perfect with trad. tunes and eg. Henry Mancini.
I alternatively use the Yamaha and the Goldentone now. Keeps me busy...
--
Ben
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2005-10-17 21:06
I have encountered beginners who thought the reed was too hard when in fact it was the opposite. They were closing the reed off causing lots of back pressure. To them this meant too hard. If you are able to stop the sound easily by applying pressure with your mouth when playing a long tone then the reed might be too soft. Just a thought.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-10-17 21:11
A better mouthpiece will do wonders.
yamaha, and goldentone are on the low end of the scale of mouthpieces.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2005-10-17 21:21
> A better mouthpiece will do wonders.
> yamaha, and goldentone are on the low end of the scale of mouthpieces.
Well, I am on the low end of the scale of players... ;-)
Besides, I'm not in the position of being able to spend 120$ on a new mpc (the Yamaha was the cheapest here, but still 65$...).
--
Ben
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2005-10-18 03:02
Ben,
I've tried a clark fobes debut which I found to be a very good mouthpiece (bought it for my sister when she said she wanted to try clarinet, but I simply had to try it out when I got it). A very good mouthpiece (don't know how it'd measure up against your yamaha) but for around 30 dollars, I felt it was a bargain.
Moral of the story - doesn't need to be expensive to be considered a good-quality mouthpiece.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Wes
Date: 2005-10-18 04:38
Hi!
When my 9 year old grandaughter started playing the clarinet two years ago, I overhaulled and tuned an old Tribert clarinet for her with a white patch Rico mouthpiece that I refaced . I gave her No. 3 V12 Vandoren reeds that I made sure were vibrating good by sanding the tips slightly and which worked good on my Mitchell Lurie #3 mouthpiece on my R13 Buffet. She has had no problem getting a good sound with normal effort. Since she is 4 hours away, I have not given her many lessons but when we do, we play duets which are ok in tune. I also find the #3 V12s to suit me well and I play first clarinet in a very fine band in Los Angeles.
Perhaps a different mouthpiece would help as well as some lessons with a good teacher.
Remember that the embouchure can be firm without biting hard or pinching. The clarinet is not so hard. Be sure to take quite a bit of the moughpiece in your mouth. As Mitchell Lurie put it one time, take a little bit more in the mouth than is very comfortable.
Good Luck!
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2005-10-20 21:06
Alexi,
There's no thing as a 30$ mpc here. Yamaha, Vandoren, Pomarico and a wealth of esoteric (pardon the expression, I mean the prices rather than the brand) are available here. Hite Premiere, Fobes Debut? Blank faces in the shops. :-(
So I guess it's internet shopping time...
Side story: Today I experienced my horn singing. No red face, no sore jaw muscles, just loads of joy and a brilliant horn.
On the menu this day: Goldentone 3, Vandoren #2 and probably just the right mood, energy and embouchure. "On her majesty's secret service" was never more fun than today, Scott Joplin and Gershwin weren't that bad either. :-)
--
Ben
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2005-10-21 01:36
If you're interested in a Fobes, Hite, or other type of mouthpiece that no one around you seems to know about, I think it'd be best to write a quick email expressing your interest and briefly stating that where you live, there are none that know of their mouthpiece, but you read about it and was wondering what options they can offer you to get your hands on one.
That's how I received a CD called "Alive" by a clarinet quartet in Australia. I actually ended up emailing a store in Australia that had their CD, paypaling the money over, plus four dollars for a "media mail" type distribution. It did take about three weeks for it to get to my door, but I don't regret writing those emails.
Where there's a will, there's a way!
Alexi
PS - Unfortunately, I checked the other day out of curiousity, but that particular group hasn't put out another CD yet . . . still hoping though!
US Army Japan Band
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2005-10-21 09:49
I ended up placing an order on wwbw.com.
Shipping rates look stiff, but compared to the shop prices here it's still a bargain.
(Don't get me wrong, I don't mind paying a moderate uplift for advice, presentation and the like, but nearly double the price tag is exorbitant. And it's not even the shops that set these prices - it's the mfgr's suggested retail price...)
--
Ben
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Author: Aaron
Date: 2005-10-22 05:41
i hope this article is helpful.
http://www.gleblanc.com/educator/edoutput.cfm?ID=8c
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Author: Ah Clem
Date: 2005-11-02 15:39
I got brave a few weeks ago and purchased a box of #3 Rico Royale Reeds (say that three times fast). They seem quite stiff, but I am getting the hang of it.
I need to build up a tolerance to these before hitting the real "hard stuff" (Van Doren #3's?).
Ah Clem
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2005-11-02 18:23
I'm currently on Vandoren #2.5; the #2 I played before got stale so I took that one. On my other horn I'm using a #2 Rico. A friend gave me half a box of La Voz medium soft reeds "to use up".
Duh, they all sound alike after two or three minutes. Gosh, am I flexible.
<running gag>
Maybe I need a better mouthpiece and a new barrel?
</running gag>
--
Ben
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Author: sarnia
Date: 2005-11-02 20:19
tictactux/Ah Chem.
Like you both Iam still sorting out the peculiarities and mysteries of the
Reed /Mouthpiece combination.
I felt I could not sort the confusion out ( because thats what it is to the beginner) until I had been to a few more sites...and read a selection of booksplus ofcourse disseminated the wealth of info on the Board.....
Sites that had interesting info.. Davie Cane (preliminary prep of reeds.conditioning Break in Procedure chart etc..)
LeBlanc Site.. Education officer, Reeds/mouthpieces.
.
Vandoren Site.. #2 Magazine (you can down load) this issue on there site has been deadicated to Clarinet Mouthpieces. Construction diagrams and interviews, the usual," I use X because the facing is only so long!!", good read.
.plus " The Art of Clarinet playing "by Keith Stein Chapters:- 1 "The Mpc and ligature, " and Chpt 2 " The Reed"
I also have found my original Rico Royals 1.5s are dying slightly,after 2/3months of rotation of the box of 10,,
Iam now on to Vandoren 1.5s .... and using /trying the break in procedure from Davie Reed site on a box of 10 Vandoren 2 .5s,, the tone is certainly less fuzzy if thats the right word..
I have also moved from the 5RV to The Trad 5RV Lyre, which has helped because of the facing length,, I think !!, as we have been told there
is a lot of " suck it and see"... Iam pleased to of had the advice from the board though, not having a teacher and sorting things out for yourself is a steep learning curve.....
Are there any other tips out there on the next stage of balancing / & making playable my box of 10 2.5 Vandorens ????
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2005-11-02 21:06
Sarnia,
Tom Ridenour's ATG system of adjusting reeds is very simple, and works very well. With the package comes a booklet and (if they still offer it) one package has a video tape/dvd which shows everything from the booklet in live action with Mr. R himself showing you how to adjust and balance reeds using his system.
After buying the system, I threw away the block he sent, but found that the information and DVD I payed for were VERY helpful and probably worth the money on their own. I still test and adjust reeds using his methods, just not the block he included with the system (I just use a flat piece of sandpaper, the piece of glass that came in the ATG package, and my finger).
Alexi
PS - Be careful not to fall into the "I play a very hard reed" trap. Don't overcompensate for a hard reed by biting. It should be very natural and easy to blow. And each mouthpiece has a different "natural" strength. The mouthpiece I'm playing around with right now uses approximately size 3 - 3.5 Vandoren V12 reeds (I take a 3.5 and shave it down a bit). I also have another mouthpiece that uses a size 5 Vandoren V12 reed. But on NEITHER mouthpiece do I have to bite or use a lot of embouchure strength to get them to play. So while it seems nice to go up in strength, don't FORCE it. If it comes naturally, it does. If you feel like you're biting to get the harder reed to sound, then maybe you've hit the limit.
US Army Japan Band
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2005-11-02 21:12
Sarnia,
I must admit I am not (always) a fan of blaming personal underachievements on the material used. Of course, a decent setup is a prerequisite, don't get me wrong. I've come to the conclusion that thinking "If I had ... then (and only then) I could ..." is self-delusion and hinders real progress.
I don't think Artie Shaw and all the other famous musicians of that era had the wealth of choice and varietey of products and tools available, yet they managed to move the masses. It must be something in the head, not on the reed. To be honest, I don't think I even scratched at the limitations of my current gear (a wooden Martin Busine and a hard-rubber Chabot)
In the last weeks I found out that I'm getting hissing, gurgling, flat, squeaking sounds with whichever horn, reed our mouthpiece combo. Or that I am getting a good or at least satisfactory result with the same setup I struggled with the day before.
It's me, not the clarinet, not the mouthpiece, not the reed. When I have bad day you could give me a Buffet Festival and it'd sound bad. On a good day even an Indian horn would sound, er, okay. Some days I get a cramped mouth with #1.5 reeds, other days I can stand a #2.5 without getting tired.
I usually grab my favourite (ie the one I finished with the last time) reed, if it works, okay, else I try a different one. When it's worn, I deeply sigh and get a new one, maybe a harder one, maybe the same because I liked the old one so much.
One day, when I'm not busy anymore thinking of fingers, embouchure and the melody (no sheets/scores yet), then I maybe have the time to think about scratching reeds, staring at mpc windows and oiling bores.
Till then I simply enjoy playing out of my head, and each ever-so-tiny progress. And, of course, this forum.
Oh well, that was more idle thinking than insight, eh?
--
Ben
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