 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-10-31 13:33
How should a couple of notes (C5 gliss down to A4) marked 'A LA-LOMBARDO' be played?
It's in the reed 3 band part for 'Guys and Dolls' (#30 - 'Marry The Man' - bars 59-60 and cancelled with 'NATURAL' on beat 4 of bar 60).
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Author: Merlin
Date: 2005-10-31 13:37
Thing BIG vibrato. Generally that marking is used when people want things to sound corny.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-10-31 13:40
Aah - just as well that bit is played on tenor sax then!
Cheers!
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2005-10-31 16:57
Guy's way of doing things was to play with a wide vibrato, and not too fast in the number of cycles. (His brother (Carmine? it's been a while since I looked into them) played sax in the group, and was responsible for the style, such as it is.) Listen to a "stock" recording of Ald Lang Sine and you'll usually get the effect served up in spades.
Just why the Royal Canadians took this approach is one of the great mysteries of "pop" music. The term "it sounds corny" does not do justice to just how bad it sounds. It sounds like the saxophone section is seated on a slowly vibrating surface and is trying (unsuccessfully) to play half notes under that handicap.
The only rough equivalent that I've found is the extreme vibrato that was seen in some female voices in the late 1920s and early 1930's. Another good example of the style are the female choruses in old animated features or the choral work in The Wizard Of Oz.
(For a spoken version, listen to the Good Witch Glinda (Billie Burke). Her voice has this so much that I can't stand to listen to her parts in the film.)
Virtually all saxophone playing is supposed to include a vibrato component. When playing in a section where your component does not meld with the others, you'll get told so pretty quickly. Some clarinet players who convert over to sax never really catch on, while some sax players who convert over to clarinet have similar problems in the opposite direction.
Getting it all at a happy medium is one of the great successes that sax players have in their lives. Lord knows that we need them...
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-10-31 17:43
I'll see what the others do at that point (let's hope we all do the same) - the rehearsal is next Monday (7th) and the show finishes on the 12th.
The general tenor sax sound I have in mind and aim for is Michael Brecker's sound (and aim for a Pete King sound on alto).
I don't generally use a wide vibrato on sax (just a shallow vib), and never use vibrato on clarinet if playing straight music, but if I'm playing Millers (usually on Moonlight Serenade or Stardust) then a certain amount of vibrato is a must.
But I can lay on vibrato with a JCB if needed.
Only on flute, oboe and cor anglais I use a diaphragm vibrato.
And the reed 3 part for 'Guys and Dolls' is for tenor sax, clarinet, oboe and cor anglais (although there is a double stave - oboe/cor on top line and the bottom stave is transposed for clarinet if they can't get someone that doubles on oboe/cor). As they've made the effort to specify oboe and cor, I ought to do as they intend, which isn't a problem.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2005-10-31 17:54
Terry,
Some female vocalist ?!!? I believe you refer to the great Edith Piaf whose rendition of "We'll Meet Again" can be heard gracing the final frames of Stanley Kubrick's "Dr. Strange Love."
I feel our recent musical history slipping....slipping..........
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: Merlin
Date: 2005-10-31 19:48
"Some female vocalist ?!!? I believe you refer to the great Edith Piaf whose rendition of "We'll Meet Again" can be heard gracing the final frames of Stanley Kubrick's "Dr. Strange Love.""
I'm a huge fan of Dr. Strangelove, and I'm 99% sure the voice you hear singing we'll meet again is that of Vera Lynn.
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2005-10-31 20:38
Regardless of the name of the thrush in question, the Dr. Strangelove tune is another excellent example.
There's no question that Edith Piaf laid it on with a vengeance, but she was singing in the French chanteuse style, which (whenever I have heard it) employed vibrato in spades. I think that Marlene Dietrich did much the same (my memory is fuzzy on The Blue Angel; other things going on up on the screen were much more distracting that a little warble in her voice). Some of this might have to do with - "ahem" - less than optimal singing voices caused by too much smoking and too little skills; it's a lot easier to be on pitch if you're allowed to vary up and down while trying to hit the note.
The instances that I was referring to were a bit more mainstream. Listen to movie soundtracks from the US during the period 1927-1944, and you'll hear it aplenty. (A seminal number that illustrates the point: We're Out Of The Woods, sung as a background during the final approach of that brat Dorothy and her three goons to the Emerald City...warble-rama of the first order.) After that (1950's on up to the present) there's very little of it.
The old cartoons are a real bellwether here. In all of the old (pre-1940 or so) shorts, the soprano heavy, "flutey sounding" female chorus predominates, and the vibrato is there in a big way. Stuff from the 1950's on is sung more "straight", and the female voices are predominately alto.
The shows from the Twenties and Thirties reflect a similar shift. Back in those days the female lead was often a soprano or mezzo soprano (and the male lead a tenor). Up to that time, altos were cast as the second banana female and baritones were comic relief males. Post war, altos took the lead for the ladies and baritone voices were more common for the male first banana.
The alto voice has really come into its own since the advent of pop music. I feel that it's more in a "normal" range for most women (and the baritone for most men, cf Frank, Deano, Sammy and Mel), and that accounts for the greater popularity. Then too, early forms of sound reproduction were better with the highs than with the lows, so that might have contributed as well.
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: BobD
Date: 2005-10-31 21:22
New Year's Eve has never been the same. Music from the '20s and '30's is like home cooking.....something else the younger set knows nothing about.
Fortunately, for those of us who like corny music we at least have the recordings....but home cooking is lost forever. What bands have you heard about recently that are entertaining the troops....like The Royal Canadians did.....and Vera Lynn too.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2005-10-31 22:16
Michael Brecker and Pete King? These are great players but if you listen to some recordings of Guys and Dolls it's pretty obvious that the style is different. The trumpet right from the start sets the style. Guys and Dolls is vintage stuff and lots of fun. Lead alto player was Carmen Lombardo. To me Freddy Martin had a similar approach.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2005-10-31 22:44
Dear Merlin,
Much apologies, I stand corrected on the film score to "Dr. Strangelove."
Vera Lynn it is. O.k., so, there were many examples of the French chanteuse style. This misconception of mine dates back to my first hearing of a full album of Edith Piaf. I remember thinking, "now where have I heard that voice before, OH yeah, now I know....." and I was wrong then too !!!!
I need to go back to the practice studio and work on that vibrato.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-10-31 23:00
Don't worry John, I won't be going all out Michael Breckeresque on this occasion - if only I could do everything else like him too.
I did play tenor sax in an orchestral setting once - (well, 'British Light Music' to use the right term) it was an Eric Coates piece which I played a la Brecker(ish) - 'Knightsbridge March' - it annoyed the principal flute (who doesn't like saxes, so I wound him up even more!) but the principal oboe said my playing was fantastic (I was on 2nd oboe for that concert, but doubling on tenor for the 'special' pieces), and it's nice to be appreciated by an unexpected source! Even better still, some parts were in unison with the 2nd bassoon (who can't play to save her life, and she teaches!), and it made a change to hear them played in tune.
I'll see what the other saxes do - I know one of them (ex-Royal Marines) so we should all find a happy medium style-wise.
You know what? I've never even seen or heard much from 'Guys and Dolls' - the only tunes I do know are 'If I Were a Bell' and 'Sit Down'.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2005-10-31 23:11)
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Author: Kel
Date: 2005-11-01 00:25
Vibrato is a way to insure you are in tune at least part of the time.
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Author: BG ★2017
Date: 2005-11-01 01:25
Chris,
You can to go Amazon and type in a search for Guy Lombardo and listen to some one minute excerpts to best capture his style. Specifically, listen to Auld Lang Syne, Red Sails In The Sunset, Harbor Lights, etc., some songs that feature the saxophone section. I have played the lead alto chair in the Guy Lombardo and the Royal Canadians Orchestra, with Al Pierson fronting the band, on several tours. I remember the first night that I played with them, Al told me that if my whole body wasn't vibrating by the end of the night, then I hadn't been working hard enough!
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2005-11-01 02:06
Chris, It is interesting that you mention Pete King..... I remember his playing with Maynard Ferguson. I loved his sound.... I think he used an unusual setup.... metal Otto Link on alto. Pete is one of my all time favourites.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2005-11-01 04:07
"Round and rolling" is the way I've heard it described. I know when I do Auld Lang Sine or Red Sails In The Sunset, my gut gets fatigued from the exaggerated motions needed to pull it off. Particularly wearing is Auld Lang Sine on New Years, when you've already got four hours of playing under your belt, and there's still an hour to go after ten choruses of ALS played ala Lombardo.
When it's done nowadays, it's for the novelty effect rather than for the "quality" of the music involved.
You see notations like the one in Guys And Dolls in shows occasionally, since it's the fastest way to convey to the musician just how a particular part is to be played. If I recall Marry The Man Today correctly, there is one two bar stretch that emphasizes some of the lyrics in the song (i.e., the singers says "Guy Lombardo" at the same time that the group does Lombardo style to punch up the joke.)
Guys and Dolls has some great stuff in it, but limited saxophone playing. (Indeed, most "jazzy" shows, even stuff like West Side Story or Wonderful Town, still have more clarinet playing than sax playing.) The two "show girl" numbers plus the Havana "fight scene" are pretty much it, as I recall.
The bass clarinet part is fun, with a lot of dramatic accompaniment under female vocals. Anyone who covers the Tenor/clarinet/oboe/English horn part has a boring time for the most part, but they do get to run that great featured part on Fugue For Three Tin Horns ("I gotta harse right heer, his name is Paul Revere...") on English horn.
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-11-01 16:27
Do you know if the bass clarinet part descends below low Eb?
I'm not sure who's playing bass clarinet for this show, and if they might need a low C bass. I'll let them use mine if they need to.
When I did West Side Story I was disappointed with the sax parts - mainly stab notes on bari sax and a couple of lip bends on tenor, but some of the running 'jazz' phrases for clarinet I did on soprano sax instead as I could get around them easier. The only cor anglais solo I had was in 'Tonight'.
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2005-11-02 00:11
No low D, Db or C in Guys & Dolls (or in most musicals, for that matter). Your garden variety bass will suit whoever does the part just fine.
Guys & Dolls is one of those musicals that I can walk on and play it cold, so often have I done it. It's not the best of all musically, but you could end up doing shows that are a lot worse. Think Sound Of Music or Carousel. Worse yet, think two production of Carousel in a row: thirty plus performances of a "musical comedy" that is only funny in that they have to work hard to work the amusement ride of the title into the story. I about swore off doing college musicals at that point in my life.
The music in most musicals is a fooler as far as sax parts go. When I think of shows like Company or Forum or West Side Story, I always think "jazzy", but when I revisit the book I note that there's usually not more than 20% of sax in a given show.
Forum, other than At The House Of Marcus Lycus and the overture, is all clarinet and flute. Company is about the same, with the sax parts limited to one dance number near the end, sixteen bars in Poor Baby, and the 11 o'clock number at the middle (Side By Side By Side) (where I always do part of the big chorus on soprano sax; it sounds a lot better than another clarinet). West Side Story is the same; other than Cool (neat bari line there), a little tenor in one of the early ballet numbers, plus the sound effects in the opening "rumble", it's all clarinet (and bass clarinet, two of them, and Eb clarinet).
Some are exceptions, like Chicago (even in the original version). But most are mostly clarinet and bass clarinet. Further proof of just how flexible the clarinet family is...
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-11-02 12:57
My part in 'West Side Story' (reed 3) used up pretty much all my resources - piccolo, flute, oboe, cor, Bb and bass clarinets, tenor and bari saxes - but I did bring along an Eb clarinet and soprano sax (for the running 'jazz'-type quavers in 'Cool') as well (the only instruments I didn't use in my collection were alto sax and A clarinet at that time).
The parts where reed 2 player (who only had Eb, Bb and bass clar) and I were doubling had him on Eb and me on Bb - but we're both in unison, and it was all in the altissimo for me, so I just played them all on Eb as well - makes more sense.
I bought my Buffet Prestige low C bass after borrowing a new one to do 'Anything Goes' (Beaumont ed.) - the bass clar went to low C near the end, and there were a few low Ds (which made having a front low D key very handy indeed) in a couple of numbers. I did have to make sure this bass still looked new as I borrowed it from a shop for no charge! But as I said, I bought one later on - from the same shop - only mine has proper slots in the adjusting screw heads rather than allen key heads.
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