 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Richard Salzman
Date: 2005-10-30 21:14
I have an older Leblanc{60's}with low c extension. I emailed the company for more info but they had little to offer except that it is a professional model.Unfortunately I have not played any other bass so I have no basis for comparison.The fact that I have nursed this baby over the years has only contributed to my love.The eccentricities of this beast are part of its charm and challenge. The most pressing issue at the moment is the bad twelfths in the left hand[c-f and g-c].The lower notes are all sharp and the upper ones all flat as in 438 vs 442 and of course this changes with the amount of air I'm pushing through the upper notes getting flatter with volume and the lower going really sharp played ppp.Any clues or insights?
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Author: Richard Salzman
Date: 2005-10-30 23:09
The neck is from charles bay designed at a better angle for playing and the only adjustability is the degree to which I can pull it in or out of the body.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-10-31 13:19
I just this weekend worked on a friend's older low-C Leblanc bass. Like most single-register-vent Leblancs, the 'long' low E/F and middle B/C are stuffy and sharp, and the upper clarion is thin and resistant. Unfortunately these are characteristic of the mediocre Leblanc design and are very hard to remedy.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-10-31 13:43
Very well said, Dave, I read this thread earlier, and from my lesser experience with [only low Eb] Leblancs OF THAT TIME PERIOD, was wanting to say much the same as you have. With working on a Noblet, a [reg] Leb and an LL !!, I could not get uniform tonality from chalemeau to clarion, did notice some intonation shortcomings as well. Their [then, by L L] patents on keywork were/are impressive, BUT -- . A fine teacher- multi-clarinet player does well on her Leb in our comm. band, I'll ask her questions as to her experience and possible "curative" horn repair. TKS, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Shorthand
Date: 2005-11-01 02:03
I have to agree with David - The difference between double register vent bass clarinets and single register vent (which still may have a complicated register key mechanism specifically for Bb) is what separates the men from the boys.
Its impossible to design a Bass with one register vent and get it right.
The Bay improved angle neck is a nice piece to have, but it doesn't really have any effect on your 12th's being too close.
LeBlanc made a very conscious decision in 1950 to simplify the design and lighten the keywork by going with a single bridge key and keeping the register key on the upper joint as opposed to on the neck. (US Patent 2,627,776.) In restrospect, this was a big mistake. I don't think that LeBlanc went back to double register vents with a double bridge key until the 70's or so (maybe later).
The patent indicates that double bridge key register key mechanisms had been in use for a while already, but they weren't patented in the US, but instead seem to have just relied on US patent treaties (with France, I assume).
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Author: ned
Date: 2005-11-01 03:14
''intuneness'' - a new word for our dictionaries?
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-11-01 14:58
On the other side.......There are some single-register vent Leblanc-made bass clarinets that play very well (for reasons I have not yet been able to determine!). Larry Bocaner seems to have one of these, and another gentleman I know in the DC area has a Leblanc Esprit (basically a Noblet which is engraved "Leblanc" and costs an extra couple of hundred dollars for that privilege) which I've played on two occasions and plays great.
I just wanted to temper my criticism of Leblancs with the caveat that they're not all mediocre!
But I stand by my assertion that a double-register-vent instrument is more LIKELY to play well (percentage-wise) than a single-vent design.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-11-01 16:01
Rite y'char, Dave, as we have said above. Re-reading Leon Leblanc's description in US 2,627,776 [TKS, S H], of the "prior art" keyings [? by Selmer, Pedler, Conn, Stubbins, Albert et al], he acknowleges those DRK systems' existence, and his lengthy "independent" claims 1 and 4 show how complex his keying had to be, to be "novel" and not "a step backward in the art" to satisfy the patent examiner and meet the "novelty" requirement for patentability. Considering the initial filing in 1947, of which this is a C I P, it took 6 years in USPO to be granted!! Persistence paid off !! Likely a very interestion "story". Wish I could search foreign pats [FR 614,673, in partic] easily. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Markael
Date: 2005-11-01 16:11
I did a Google image search for double register vent. It yielded two pictures, neither of which had anything to do with bass clarinets.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-11-01 17:37
Markael,
You don't -- you're making the very common error of confusing the 'throat-Bb' key portion of the register mechanism with a register vent. If you had a true DRK design there would be a second register vent on the NECK, which would open from clarion Eb and above while the lower vent would close at the same time. This requires a second bridge key to accomodate a linkage coming up from the lower joint. I presume you don't have all these gadgets on your Esprit?
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Author: Markael
Date: 2005-11-01 18:00
Dave,
Your presumption is correct.
All this is new to me, so it's good to learn about it.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-11-01 18:22
Me too, fellas, even reading inventor's and attorney's wordy descriptions in the several patents on this [truly] important subject. I'm still looking for the appearance of Yamargo's inventions on Yamaha's best bass cls. Have patents, will publish ! Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Shorthand
Date: 2005-11-01 19:06
Dave - that's not quite true - the Kohlert's DRV is located completely within the upper joint, but definitely counts as one as it does have a dobule bridge key.
However, I think you would agree it WOULD benefit from having the main register vent higher.
The Current US Classification for clarinet-related patents is 84/382. There are only 145 clarinet-related US patents, though.
4 of them are Yamaha's:
PAT. NO. Title
4,922,792 Key mechanism for a wood wind
4,848,206 Key mechanism for a bass range clarinet
4,809,580 Key mechanism for a bass clarinet
4,793,235 Key mechanism for a clarinet
I don't think I've seen either of the G#/A key innovations deployed. With a DRV setup, keeping the A key light is a real challenge, so any extra weight and spring force isn't a good idea, so I don't think the benefits outweighed the drawbacks.
The Low C fingering system is in use on every low C Yamaha Bass Clar AFAIK.
As for the lower joint with the little vent hole - I can't remember if I've seen that or not.
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Author: Wendy
Date: 2005-11-01 19:17
Question for Dave S.
You said:
"Like most single-register-vent Leblancs, the 'long' low E/F and middle B/C are stuffy and sharp"
and
"If you had a true DRK design there would be a second register vent on the NECK, which would open from clarion Eb and above while the lower vent would close at the same time."
If the second vent doesn't come into play until clarion Eb and above, how does it help with the stuffiness of the long, low notes?
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Author: Richard Salzman
Date: 2005-11-01 19:40
For me the key phrase here is "play well". While I agree with your description of some of the Leblanc problems [stuffiness,difficulty speaking in the upper clarion] I have been able to correct those via fine tuning the adjustment screw on the register key and undercutting the tone holes in the left hand and the right hand index finger. Also I find that pulling out the neck does help somewhat in that it is easier to lip up the clarion notes than to lip down the low register without loss of good intonation. The instrument plays well in that it has a gorgeous rich sound, particularly in the low tones . The big issue is its being in tune with itself.Will double venting help with that particular problem?
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Author: Grabnerwg
Date: 2005-11-01 19:50
<<I have to agree with David - The difference between double register vent bass clarinets and single register vent (which still may have a complicated register key mechanism specifically for Bb) is what separates the men from the boys.
Its impossible to design a Bass with one register vent and get it right.>>
I am sorry to disagree, but this is a dangerous over-simplification.
I have seen "DRK" bass clarinets with very poor 12ths, and I have seen "SRK" bass clarinets with fairly reasonable 12ths.
While it is often true that bass clarinets with a double register key are made with more care, and therefore better intonation, there is no guarantee that by virture of having that mechanism , that the 12ths will automatically better. I wish that were true.
I believe that there are many other factors in the equation, some of which we understand, and some we do not.
Walter Grabner
www.clarinetxpress.com
40+ years of bass clarinet experience
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-11-01 19:59
Wendy,
The placement of a single vent is a compromise -- if double vents are used, each can be placed in positions (and have diameters/tube lengths) closer to their acoustical optimums (sorry, "optima") --- thus the 'long' notes are improved as well as the upper register.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-11-01 20:01
Shorthand,
If you measure the location of your Kohlert upper vent, given that the upper joint is longer and the neck shorter than on typical DRK instruments, you'll find that the upper vent is in approximately the same location relative to other parts of the horn as on the 'typical' basses! It's an optical illusion, really.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-11-01 21:29
I'm very pleased to see this"quite-technical" discussion, and Shorthand, happy to see another with similar patent-info interests/ability. On the "longer U J/shorter neck" question, I have an older Pedler alto cl with the 2 reg. vents + a pinch Bb tone hole, all on the elongated U J. I had , gave it to NMM Vermillion, a comparable Ped Bass cl [a big beast!], which had the upper vent on its neck, with the same operating mechanics. Havent found a pat on it , yet. I also have a ?40's? Conn BC [to low E only] with DRK [on the neck], a quite good player. So, both Ped and Conn predate L Leblanc's invention. All educational. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Richard Salzman
Date: 2005-11-02 00:18
don being a patent kind of guy I wnder if you know about the piug.If not I could send some info.
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