 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: davedmg
Date: 2005-10-25 21:03
I am learning how to play the clarinet. I have been teaching myself, but I just today signed up for lessons on how to improve my tone .
I practice with a chromatic tuner (Korg CA-30). My main objective is to learn to play in tune. I find, however, that tones can vary beyond the +/- 20 cent marks on the tuner. How much variation is acceptable from a competent clarinetist? -- Old Dave, Still Trying After All These Years
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Author: BelgianClarinet
Date: 2005-10-25 21:35
it's not a bad idea to do some training with a tuner, but at the end it's all in the 'ear'.
With some exercise and lessons you'll will at some time learn to correct even the last 20 cents (it's not that hard on a clarinet - for most notes), but afterall it is a matter of playing in tune with each other and that is not always 'absolute'.
Playing music is a continues game of 'listening' and 'correcting' and achieving this magic feel of 'perfect intonation', even if it is not 100% according the tuner.
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Author: redwine
Date: 2005-10-25 22:46
Hello,
I agree wholeheartedly with BelgianClarinet.
I learned somewhere that +/- 4 cents was the limit of perceptible hearing difference for the human ear. I've never heard anything else one way or the other. Does anyone else have any data regarding this?
I feel it is very important to work with a tuner (I do so every day). This is how you learn the tendencies for every note on your instrument. Then, when you get in an ensemble, you are at least very close to right on every note you play, but you must adjust each pitch within the ensemble. I always attack a note assuming that I am right, then when and if the notes are out of tune, I always assume it is me that needs to adjust. If everyone does this, tuning will be much better in the group.
SmartMusic has a wonderful feature in its tuner. It plays a pitch (if you enable this feature) that is perfectly in tune. Then, you can play with this drone and the tuner. If you purposely play flat or sharp, you can see how sharp or flat you are and hear it too. So, when you line up the dial so that you are in tune with the drone, you can both see and hear what "in tune" is.
Ben Redwine, DMA
owner, RJ Music Group
Assistant Professor, The Catholic University of America
Selmer Paris artist
www.rjmusicgroup.com
www.redwinejazz.com
www.reedwizard.com
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2005-10-25 23:42
Drone it is Ben. I use the sound all the time to provide some company in the room with me - people don't tend to be any where in the vicinity when I play :-) Either set tonic or the prevailing note you're most interested in correcting. If you don't think 20 cents is bad, play 20 cents flat against the drone for a bit. Old British maxim - It is better to be sharp than out of tune. Most people hear flat way before they hear sharp (the reason you hear string players tune by glissing up to the note, not down).
..........Paul Aviles
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Author: johnsonfromwisconsin
Date: 2005-10-26 00:28
I've heard that too Paul, but it begs the question: what does it accomplish if by playing sharp you make someone else essentially play flat by contrast?
-JfW
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Author: davedmg
Date: 2005-10-26 01:39
I have heard that some soloists tune a little bit sharp to help their solos stand out from their ensembles. I have also heard that the human ear detects flatness immediately, and prefers a little sharpness. I strive to stay a little on the plus side of the tuner, and I am trying to incorporate some so-called "resonance" fingerings to produce a slight flattening of the tones.
On the other hand, Dr. Michael White in his album "Dancing in the Sky" seems to deliberately play slightly flat; perhaps to better emulate the sounds of early New Orleans clarinetists. The album's songs sound like they were written a hundred years ago, but I think most of them are original to Dr. White.
Are there any forum members with perfect pitch who know this album? I find White's music very exciting, and I'm trying to steal some of White's licks. Does he achieve his sound by playing just a little flat?
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2005-10-26 02:24
Sorry, got carried away making a point and made it all muddled again. The point is to try and play all the time, everywhere with the analog needle of your Korg firmly planted at zero. Well..... then there are the considerations for the third of the scale being a little low and the leading tone being a little high (the clarinet does NOT feature tempered tuning). At any rate, adjusting to the environment is most important, for your sanity and the sanity of your colleagues. Practicing to an ideal with diligence should be used as a tool to make the real world applications easier.
............Paul Aviles
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Author: jim S.
Date: 2005-10-26 03:01
If you have a good basic ear, playing scales is a valuable way to learn the tendencies of your clarinet and to become adept in the art of bending each note as called for by the piece being played. But I frequently hear performers playing indiscriminately sharp in recorded music. I think they are deluding themselves when they do so if they think it sounds good, or somehow makes them stand out from the accompaniment in an effective way. It can become habitual and then there is a real danger that you will teach your ear not to recognize the inaccuracy.
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Author: Max S-D
Date: 2005-10-26 04:10
The alto saxophonist Jackie McLean always plays a little sharp (I think), but he makes it work somehow. Some people can't stand his playing for that exact reason though. Admittedly, he' the only person I know of that could make that sound acceptable.
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2005-10-26 11:18
It all depends (of course).
redwine mentioned 4 cents. This is 1/25 of a semitone. Concert A in the treble stave sounds at 440 Hz and Bb at 466 Hz, so a 4 cents error in a concert A will cause it to be 1 Hz out: 441 or 439 Hz.
If one person plays at 440 and one at 441, you will hear a beat once a second. In a long note, the effect will be obvious. In a short note, you won't hear the beat.
Hence problem #1 - what is acceptable in a short note isn't acceptable in a long note. Obvious enough from common sense.
Now consider what happens an octave higher. Everything is doubled. If you are 4 cents out, you will get two beats a second. Hence the beats will be manifest in shorter notes than would be the case at a lower pitch.
Hence problem #2 - intonation is more critical in higher notes than lower ones.
But the real issue - and this has been touched upon by others above, is that tuners work in equal temperament. So do pianos, organs (usually) and glockenspiels. But other instrumentalists try to adjust their tuning to something closer to correct ("just") intonation. In just intonation, if you play a C major scale, the interval from C to D is larger than the interval from D to E. If you modulate to D major, the D to E interval becomes as large as the C to D interval was in C major. Tuners don't help with this, unless you have a very sophisticated tuner indeed.
The value of a tuner is to help you understand the intonation tendencies of your instrument. That is not quite the same thing as learning to play in tune.
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If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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Author: Bennett ★2017
Date: 2005-10-26 23:25
Davedmg Something to keep in mind. If you're just beginning you're probably using a fairly soft reed. As you progress you'll turn to harder reeds. Consistency in intonation is generally much easier with hard reeds than soft. Try a 1/2 reed harder with your tuner and see if its true for you.
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