 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: RodRubber
Date: 2005-10-26 01:15
BBoarders,
For some reason, my teachers never believed in oiling the clarinet, so i was never instructed on the proper technique. Can someone, hopefully, the Doctor, explain to me exactly what to do, and what medium to use to apply the oil etc. Im assuming that my instruments could use some oil, as they have never been oiled. My teacher felt the oil "Dulled the tone."
Thanks,
Best -
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2005-10-26 01:48
(Disclaimer - I sell a plant derived bore oil and special oil application products)
Well, I believe in oiling. IMHO most of the negatives about oiling concern using the wrong kind of oil, which is to say an oil product that is not similar to the oil used at the factory to impregnate the wood before manufacture of the instrument.
Instruments do loose oil over time since the oil used at the factory is a plant derived oil it has some miscibility with water. Water in the bore during playing will remove some of the oil when the bore is swabbed (let your used swab sit in a bowl of hot water >not silk of course< and see that oil droplets come to the surface of the water). All liquids have some vapor pressure and some of the oil will evaporate over time depending on heat and humidity conditions. The wood is saturated at the factory with oil so replacing the oil with a similar oil to the point of saturating the wood (it is difficult to over saturate grenadilla with plant oils) is the condition that the wood was in at the time of manufacturing steps and the sound should not be different than when the instrument was first manufactured.
Different pieces of wood - and the chances of getting two adjoining pieces of wood from the same tree in your clarinet are slim to none - have different oiling requirements so you should carefully examine your clarinet piece by piece and evaluate if it appears to require oiling. My observation has been if the wood in the bore looks grey and dull rather than shiny and black then it should be oiled. I also clean and then oil the outside of my instruments.
I apply a thin even coat of oil, either with my specialized tools, or with a square piece of clean cotton T-shirt woven cotton material (less likely to leave lint or threads behind) tied in the middle to a string. The swab or mop should be damp with oil, not dripping. Just as a precaution I cut squares of waxed paper and put them under the closed pads so that oil cannot contact the pads. I do use a tiny foam (cosmetic type) Q-tip to apply oil to the tone hole interior surfaces. I let the clarinet absorb the oil overnight and check it the next morning and if all of the oil is absorbed and I repeat the process until there is a film of oil on the surface of the bore after the overnight period. I remove this surface oil with a new clean piece of cotton material and I am done.
Depending on the piece of wood, your ambient environment, relative humidity, amount of playing time and swabbing I find that oiling every three months is good for me and my horn under my conditions - YMMV.
L. Omar Henderson
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Author: hans
Date: 2005-10-26 02:22
RodRubber,
You might also enjoy this article
http://www.naylors-woodwind-repair.com/
by another of the BB's sponsors.
A search should turn up quite a few threads on this topic.
My last teacher didn't believe in oiling either. I do.
Regards,
Hans
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Author: contragirl
Date: 2005-10-26 07:07
I oil my clarinet maybe once a year, only when it looks like it needs it. I notice when the ends of the tenon look dry, usually during the winter, I put a very light amount of oil in the bore. I also have some surface cracks in the bore, which is fairly common, but it makes me paranoid anyway. And I'm paranoid of over-oiling, so that is why I do it as little and as far between as possible.
Ppl usually suggest that older horns need oiling, rather than newer ones. as long as you keep the humidity constant, it should be ok. But yeah, what the Doc says.
I have a question about that myself. I use the Leblanc oil that came in the little care kit. Is that stuff ok if you don't have the cool Doc oil or Almond oil stuff around?
Good luck.
--Contragirl
(Go Terps)
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Author: crnichols
Date: 2005-10-26 10:06
Leblanc's Oil is mineral based (petroleum derived), which has been found by many to do more harm than good to their clarinet. I would suggest acquiring either the Doctor's or Naylor's blend. Many people also use sweet almond oil.
http://www.naylors-woodwind-repair.com/
Larry Naylor's articles address the problem with petroleum based bore oil.
Good luck!
Christopher Nichols
1st Infantry Division Band
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Author: Grabnerwg
Date: 2005-10-26 20:30
Oil twice a year, spring and fall, when the weather changes.
Use a few drops of an organic oil, not petroleum based oil. I recommend "The Doctor's Products".
I use Health Food Store almond oil. Morrie Backun recommends mixing in a few drops of lemon oil, to cut through the crud in the bore, and help the oil penetrate better.
Use a cotton swab, and place a few drops of oil on it. Run it through the bore three or more times.
Use the excess on the swab to oil the external wood. THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT. 99% of the time cracks start from the OUTSIDE, not the inside.
Don't get oil on your pads.
Wash the swab. Do not let oil sit on it for months and get rancid.
Have your clarinet oiled fully, when it is in for an overhaul. A good repairman should insist on this.
Walter Grabner
www.clarinetxpress.com
Mouthpieces, repairs, clarinets
Used R13's for sale
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2005-10-26 20:35
"Use the excess on the swab to oil the external wood. THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT. 99% of the time cracks start from the OUTSIDE, not the inside."
But the reason they start from the outside is that there is uncontrolled local moisture absorption on the INSIDE. I'm not sure that oiling the outside would change that.
If I were oiling the outside, it would be for other reasons than splitting on the outside.
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2005-10-26 22:10
(Disclaimer - I sell a plant derived bore oil and oil application products)
Just a few points - if the bore oil is clear and colorless it is probably mineral oil and some "name" manufacturers actually add lighter and more volatile petroleum distillate fractions to make it "look" like it is penetrating the wood - in truth this "witches brew" is much worse for the wood.
Almond oil, either sweet or bitter is very prone to autoxidation (the process of turning rancid) and must contain sufficient antioxidant materials (vitamin E is a poor antioxidant in the long run for plant oils, works better in animal fat systems than plant so do not depend on it) to keep it from going rancid. If it goes rancid on the oiling swab it will also go rancid in and on the wood in time causing damage to the structure of the wood. Almond oil combined with other oils and the proper antioxidants is a better wood preservative than almond oil alone in my experimentation. Cold expeller processed oils are better than heat treated highly processed plant oils because extensive processing removes both the natural antioxidant chemicals but also trace elements that I have found to be important in wood preservation properties.
I believe that the wood should maintain the ability to "breathe" which involves keeping the wood structure and pores cleaned. Wood will absorb and also give off excess moisture if the structure of the pores is maintained and this helps balance the water content in the wood along with plant oils natural ability to bind a certain amount of moisture. I clean the outside of the instrument because the oil in the wood mixes with the dust, lint, and pollution in the air to form a gummy mess that clogs the pores of the wood and dulls the surface. Any oil solvent cleaner will remove some oil in the cleaning process (only use a cleaner meant for woodwind instruments) and I oil the surface to replenish the oil.
L. Omar Henderson
Post Edited (2005-10-26 22:32)
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Author: sylvangale
Date: 2005-10-27 01:14
"Almond oil, either sweet or bitter is very prone to autoxidation (the process of turning rancid) "
My private instructor has a bottle of sweet almond oil that is many years old and quite dusty from Trader Joe's which isn't refridgerated at all.
It didn't smell bad and she uses it for seasonal oiling and even oiled my instrument (Oboe).
Is rancidity something that can be undetectable if not digested?
Are there other natural oils in the market that you can find in any health food store that are safer than sweet almond oil?
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2005-10-27 02:01
(Disclaimer - I make a plant derived bore oil)
It is unusual for sweet almond oil not to turn rancid within 6 months of exposure to air. No explanation for the longevity of your teachers oil - ask her if there are any added antioxidants. Other "nut" oils have been used historically for wood preservation. I do not recommend making home brews however.
The oil vats at the clarinet manufacturers are sitting out in the air and have been for many years. They do not even flush and replenish the oil often, but that is because they use a formulation that is not subject to rancidity. Francois Kloch gave a very nice recap of the Buffet manufacturing process at a recent regional clarinet choir event in Atlanta sponsored by Vandoren and Buffet - Thanks !!. He indicated that the billets of wood are soaked for a long period of time in their "secret" oil before milling. A decent chemist can extract oil for clarinet wood and with modern analytical instrumentation analyze the "secret" formula however.
There are two gentlemen in the Buffet factory that they trust to ream the bores of their professional model clarinets and one is due to retire soon. Francois said in jest that they would have to do away with him to keep the secrets safe when he retires. They may do the same with the oil mixing guy!
L. Omar Henderson
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Author: sylvangale
Date: 2005-10-27 06:03
Ah... and I thought Almond oil was non-expirational! lol.
The stuff my instructor uses is definately old stuff and I think my teacher is expecting the bottle to last her many more years.
I'll have to break her the bad news.
I was considering a few of those "Doctor's Products" items that people keep on about here. Does that bore oil have a shelf life like almond oil too? ...Should I not get a 240 mL bottle for personal use... is that year supply one year whether you use it all or not?
-Piko
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Author: Malcolm Martland
Date: 2005-10-27 13:38
In my experience newly oiled clarinets can suffer from droplets of condensation getting into the keyholes especially those on the lower right of the upper joint e.g. LH G#, and the RH trill keys and the Bb/A# lower joint key. This is disappointing when you get what was a playable clarinet back from overhaul - including oiling - and it is unplayable within 10-15 minutes without frequent swabbing.
I solved the problem last time with a few drops of Moeck "Anticondens" (used for recorders) This is a very mild detergent solution that which allows the bore to "wet" uniformly preventing droplets or rivulets of moisture forming around the sides of the bore - instead the moisture forms a film and runs out along the bottom of the bore.
Maybe it was overoiled in the first place but I wonder what you think of pouring detergent down the clarinet???
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2005-10-27 15:34
Proper oiling should not result in specific accumulations of moisture around the tone holes. Some horns are more troublesome in this regard than others due to the nature of the particular clarinet. On these I do use a tiny artist paint brush to paint a surfacant around the offending tone hole but never the whole bore - just my own solution.
L. Omar Henderson
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2005-10-28 01:32
Interesting.
I've only oiled my Buffet when I start having trouble with spit in the Eb/F# trill key holes (my G#/C# tone hole is on the top of the horn on my full Boehm, so it doesn't get clogged.
Now, since a recent overhaul, I've been having a lot more trouble with spitty trill keys. Maybe the surface tension of the bore was changed in the rebuild.
What's your advice? My teacher takes his swab to his performances with the Spokane Symphony. He's so talented: he can swab and count his rests at the same time! (he also plays and hears bitchin')
Bob Phillips
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2005-10-28 04:50
Clarinet maker Peter Eaton suggests never to oil the bore, only the keys is necessary.
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Author: Malcolm Martland
Date: 2005-10-28 10:03
Bob Phillips wrote:
> Now, since a recent overhaul, I've been having a lot more trouble with spitty trill keys. Maybe the surface tension of the bore was changed in the rebuild.
After my Emperor overhaul some toneholes were so wet that the pads were swelling after about an hours playing. I checked the situation down the bore and found that the moisture was forming droplets an a comet-tail shape downstream from the thumbhole. This trail of droplets was going right over the affected tone holes.
As I mentioned earlier I applied Moeck Anticondens (Dupanol does the same) , which is a wetting agent that helps moisture in the windway to stream, rather than form beads. I applied this to the bore once only. Subsequent inspection of the bore after playing showed that the droplets downstream from the thumbhole had disappeared. The problem was solved and the pads dried out nicely. This seemed completely logical to me as the detergent will break down the surface tension and allow the moisture to flow naturaly down the bore.
I did consider what risk there might be to the wood but as only a very small amount of solution was used and also the solution was produced by a prestige wooden recorder manufacturer. Some 7 months on the waterlogging has not recurred.
Post Edited (2005-10-28 10:03)
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-10-25 09:25
Clearly bringing back an old thread...
As far as plant oils go- what about olive oil?
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Author: Danny Boy
Date: 2007-10-25 09:41
Clarnibass wrote: (apologies if you're based in the UK but I don't think you are)
"Clarinet maker Peter Eaton suggests never to oil the bore, only the keys is necessary."
The attitude towards oiling the bore here in the UK (where Peter Eaton is based) seems to be somewhat different. This could well have something to do with our climate...although it rains all the time it seems, our humidity etc doesn't tend to swing as much as other parts of the world.
Personally, I don't oil the bore.
Ooops, didn't notice it was a revived thread.
Post Edited (2007-10-25 09:42)
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2007-10-25 10:42
(Disclaimer - I make a plant derived bore oil and Grenad-Oil, Grenadilla oil)
As far as Skygardener's question - olive oil is a main ingredient in one of the more popular "organic" bore oil formulations - not mine. I have reservations about using olive oil but the best extra virgin varieties have a lot of natural antioxidants which keep it from going rancid quickly. I was just out in Napa, CA for the olive oil festival and enjoyed tasting many of the great offerings of old vine olive oil but the prices make me swoon or maybe it was the combination of the oil and the USN Blue Angels overhead during Fleet Week in San Francisco.
Of course I am biased about my own formulations and the new Grenadilla oil replicate is recently talked about (an unpaid testimonial) on the Klarinet board - http://www.woodwind.org/clarinet/Klarinet/Postings.html#49 and here - http://www.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=253884&t=253884
L. Omar Henderson
www.doctorsprod.com
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Author: stevensfo
Date: 2007-10-25 11:01
-- "As far as plant oils go- what about olive oil?" --
A few years ago, I think David Spiegelthal informed me that what I thought might be an old rosewood Couesnon clarinet, was probably just old grenadilla in need of oiling. He was absolutely right.
I did some searching around and discovered somewhere a list of oils and their properties. (Search required?) It suggested that olive oil would be a good one to use first, followed by peanut, then almond.
I remember feeling bemused by all this but was amazed to see that the olive oil soaked into the wood very easily. I followed up with the peanut, then almond oil - leaving a few days between each application.
The clarinet went back to what I assume is its normal black colour and looks beautiful.
For bore oiling, I use Omar Henderson's bore oil, but for rejuvenating really old wood, I think I'd use the olive-peanut-almond oil treatment.
Then you have a clarinet that not only looks nice, but tastes good as well. ;-)
Steve
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2007-10-25 12:08
(same disclaimer as above)
Interesting combination of oils Steve. My own experience is that oils with different fatty acids (the building blocks of all oils) and different density will over time separate one from another and an added plant derived (most actually are) emulsifier is a good thing to add to keep them all homogenized even though you apply them separately.
L. Omar Henderson
www.doctorsprod.com
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Author: pieter
Date: 2007-10-25 18:14
Hello, always oil the bore twice a year.
I always did it before the Christmas holidays and before the summer holidays.
Buy cheap paraffine oil at a chemistry.
After oiling put the clarinet vertically, so the oil cannot reach the holes!!
By the way, NEVER put the clarinet horizontally on a table or something.
The water drips into the holes!!
Always use a stand for vertically position.
Pieter
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Author: BobD
Date: 2007-10-26 11:55
In the current Woodwind and Brasswind catalog there is a Buffet student clarinet model that has an epoxy coating on the bore the reported purpose of which is to prevent cracking.
Bob Draznik
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Author: ABerry
Date: 2007-10-26 18:55
Dr. Henderson,
How would sesame oil work as a bore or surface wood oil? Then again, sesame oil could make one very hungry...:)
Skygardner,
I don't it's so much getting the oil in the tone holes as it is bad to get the oil on the pads...
Allan
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Author: C2thew
Date: 2007-10-26 19:20
I like the 3 stage idea of bore oiling though i doubt it will do much better, just like the idea of easing in the wood.
omar's product is great to use and is thick so it pretty much eases into the wood
"....as it is bad to get the oil on the pads..." yup i'd agree there. if you get oil on the pads, it expands the pad, turns it brown, and makes it brittle probably due to the minerals.
great revived topic though!
Our inventions are wont to be pretty toys, which distract our attention from serious things. they are but improved means to an unimproved end, an end which was already but too easy to arrive as railroads lead to Boston to New York
-Walden; Henry Thoreau
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2007-10-26 20:07
(Same disclaimer)
Many people use many kinds of plant oils because of legend, advice from a teacher whose teacher's teacher thought that it was a good idea or just a whimsical thought - perhaps some practical experience but who knows?, some advice in a woodworking magazine about finishes on an entirely different species of wood, etc., etc.
Two types of oils are currently available for oiling Grenadilla wood. Over the centuries a number of plant derived oils have been used and narrowed down by experience and chronological observations to a very few oils and mixtures of oils that actually work and have been shown to preserve wood artifacts for hundreds of years - you can research these on your own or buy a product that embodies this research. Petroleum products such as mineral oil are not now used by respected groups - e.g. museums, have been used and found to be bad for wood, but are still sold to the masses at criminal profit margins as bore oil for Grenadilla. I believe that the weight of scientific evidence and practical experience comes down on the side of a plant derived oil preservative and conditioning agent for Grenadilla wood.
I will not tell you what is in my oil mixture (Bore Doctor) because it proprietary but sesame seed oil is not present. Grenad-Oil is a duplicate of the natural oil found in Grenadilla wood.
L. Omar Henderson
www.doctorsprod.com
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Author: ABerry
Date: 2007-10-26 20:25
Thanks Dr. Henderson,
As always, you are a wealth of knowledge and exceedingly helpful.
Allan
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-10-26 20:29
FWIW I use olive oil on the furniture here and I wouldn't hesitate to use it on my instruments too (I still have a 7/8 full bottle of La Tromba which probably lasts till 2074). Applied to wood, I never ever experienced olive oil go rancid; I don't know whether it reacts with the wood, but it didn't go rancid.
A problem with various research methods is that they look at isolated stuff but hardly at interactions (if it goes rancid in a petri dish doesn't mean it'll go rancid when applied to skin or wood or arundo donax) with the "victim" material, nor how it behaves to being spat at and swabbed every day.
--
Ben
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Author: FDF
Date: 2007-10-27 00:28
When I purchased my clarinet the makers said oil as directed over the first year of life and never oil it again. I haven't. My clarinet is fifty years old and has no cracks.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-10-27 04:39
Oil on the pads...
I always put the oil in the holes and I have never had a problem- but I also make sure that there is no excess oil when I put the keys back.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2007-10-27 11:24
FDF....I'm over 50 years old and have never had a broken bone. We're both lucky I guess.
Bob Draznik
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Author: seafaris
Date: 2007-10-27 14:23
Bob,
"In the current Woodwind and Brasswind catalog there is a Buffet student clarinet model that has an epoxy coating on the bore the reported purpose of which is to prevent cracking"
I have worked on wood boats for many years, and with wood you do not epoxy coat only one side. You either oil, or you have to epoxy all sides of the wood so the moisture content is equal on all sides. At least that is the theory. The final result is that you want the wood to expand and contract as equally as possible. Of course it also depends on the hardness of the wood.
...Jim
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2007-10-27 20:51
Just out of curiosity, I have another question for Doctor Henderson.
I just placed an order with you for some more stufdf, and I will be waaiting eagerly for its arrival. But I was curious as to the fundamental differences (without giving away trade secrets, of course!) between your Bore Dr. product and the newer GrenadOil. Do you recommend one over the other in different circumstances, and if so, in which case is using one preferable to using the other?
Thanks in advance. I am sure others might want to know this info, alos, so I look forward to reading your answer.
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-10-27 21:02
> I'm just here for the sax and violins.
So what do you need bore oil for? Oh, the violin, of course. Silly me. ![[tongue]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie6.gif)
FWIW I oil my bore with Nebbiolo or Single Malt...
--
Ben
Post Edited (2007-10-27 21:03)
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2007-10-27 21:46
(Disclaimer - I am seller of Bore Doctor and Grenad-Oil)
Bore doctor is a blend of plant derived oils, plant derived emulsifying agents, and antioxidants from plants. This formula was derived from a great deal of historical research, discussions with curators of several of the worlds famous museums, and caretakers of wooden artifacts in cathedrals, churchs, and monastaries world wide. Certain oils and formulations came up over and over and this was the basis of making the plant oil mixture.
Grenad-Oil is an exact copy of the oil from Grenadilla wood using purified fatty acids and a super-critical cold extraction of Grenadilla sawdust. The fatty acids makeup 97.4% of the oil and the other 2.6% is a mixture of exotic compounds, coloring agents, and undescribed compounds that I could not readily duplicate so the sawdust is extracted to get this fraction. Plant antioxidants are also added to this oil to maintain shelf life.
Bore-Doctor is a longstanding wood preservative with shelf-life now documented at over 10 years without degredation. Grenad-Oil is a choice for those individuals that only want to oil their instrument with exactly the same oil found in the wood. It is the indivduals choice. A recent discussion on the Klarinet mailing list will give you more information about others experience with Grenad-Oil - http://www.woodwind.org/clarinet/Klarinet/Postings.html#33
L. Omar Henderson
www.doctorsprod.com
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Author: BobD
Date: 2007-10-28 19:52
CORRECTION:
"In the current Woodwind and Brasswind catalo..."
The item is in fact a Buffet oboe Model 4052....not a clarinet. Sorry.
Bob Draznik
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-10-29 04:28
I brought this thread back with a slightly loaded question. With the advice of a teacher from a few years ago I always use olive oil. But reading some past posts about different oils, I thought I might be doing more harm than good and I really had no basis for using it other than my teacher's advice. It's a relief that I am not slowly destroying my clarinet.
As far as rancidity goes, I have never had a problem (as long as I use non-rancid oil). I can't say that it's better or worse than anything else, but I use it when I have problems with water in the holes and it helps for that.
Post Edited (2007-10-29 05:35)
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2007-11-08 15:43
I received my GrenadOil last week, and have made an initial application to my oldest clarinet. So far, everything looks great.
Usual kudos to the Doctor for his innovation, great service and generosity. This gentleman is great to deal with. I recommend him totally to anyone who has not tried his fine products!
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-11-09 01:51
I have read here and there that oiling too much can be bad. Can anyone explain why?
Some people have reccomended submurging the clarinet in oil to saturate it and others have suggested applying oil many times over a few days until it becomes saturated and cannot absorb more oil. So, here's my thinking, if one were to oil a lot (for example twice/month) then the wood would only be staying in that state of saturation- ie. it would be experiencing LESS change over time. If it is okay for some to saturate the wood once/year with oil, why would it be bad to keep it in that state as much as possible?
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2007-11-09 02:14
(Disclaimer - I sell a plant derived bore oil and Grenad-Oil - Grenadilla Oil)
At many manufacturers the wood is saturated with plant derived oil (not mineral oil sold as bore oil) before manufacture. As you suggest the wood will only absorb so much oil - its natural oil saturation point. In my view you cannot over oil wood because it will reach its saturation point and further oil will remain on the surface.
There is obviously a range of oil that will be in wood from manufacture or the natural oil content. Some wood for some unknown reason will loose oil more quickly than other pieces and the oil saturation range will be different for each piece of wood. It is probably not necessary to keep it at the saturation point because the oil functions pretty much the same as a water buffer over a range of oil content.
Only when the amount of oil lost reaches the lower end of the range is the water content upset and the wood shrinks due to both oil and water loss. The oil saturation point is also dependent on temperature and partial pressure. A wood saturated at colder temperatures will loose (sweat) oil when heated by environment and playing - this is not bad, just messy.
Therefore, IMO it is best not to oil frequently - only when the wood becomes dull and grey as opposed to shiny and black in the bore. I oil both the inside and outside of my instruments but only about twice a year and I oil individual pieces not the whole clarinet if it is not needed.
L. Omar Henderson
www.doctorsprod.com
PS - these recommendations are for the natural oil in the wood or a plant derived oil because petroleum based oils behave differently - plant oils are naturally hydrophilic (bind with water) whereas petroleum based oils are hydrophobic (repel water).
Post Edited (2007-11-09 12:46)
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