 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2005-10-18 15:17
Attachment: Difficult.jpg (7k)
Hi
The attached picture is from a piece I'm playing now. The place between the bars is very difficult for me and maybe I can't even play it at the speed marked. Maybe it will be performed slower but I don't know that yet (I'm sure there would be both better and worse players than me in the concert).
I haven't practiced pieces from sheets for a very long time (probably more than two years), so maybe I'm doing something wrong.
The piece is for bass clarinet, the time signature in this place is 6/8, and the tempo is dotted quarter note = 120BPM.
Any advice?
Thanks.
Post Edited (2005-10-18 15:19)
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Author: ClariBone
Date: 2005-10-18 15:27
My advice would be to do slow practice. play the whole thing ten times PERFECTLY at quarter note = 60 BPM. Then bump the metronome up to say 80 BPM. Then 100, then 120. That method has always worked for me... Good Luck!!!
Clayton
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Author: GBK
Date: 2005-10-18 15:40
Practice your Bb and Eb major scales and G melodic minor scale ...GBK
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2005-10-18 15:40
Practice different groups of the notes. Overlap the groups. Practice SLOWLY.
Katrina
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-10-18 15:42
Oh Yeah !! That would make me work HARD too. Above advice is VG, I'd suggest the 1 and 1 [long] for Eb, make sure your bridge adjustment [cork etc] is good and hope your "pinch Bb" sounds good. Its prob so fast that tonality and even a missed accidental would prob. be never heard! I've "breezed thru" similar nearly-chromatic passages in bands without criticism. No fire, pliz! Much luck, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: GBK
Date: 2005-10-18 15:46
Don Berger wrote:
> Its prob so fast that tonality and even a missed
> accidental would prob. be never heard!
That's not something I would ever advise or suggest ...GBK
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-10-18 15:55
Yure rite, of course GBK, music is a precision=perfectionist activity, no argument. We engineers, while striving hard, often add +/- a few %. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2005-10-18 16:10
Thank you everybody for your help.
GBK I appreciate your suggestions, but your reply made me think I wasn't clear on the problem (language barrier I guess). I can play each bar without a problem. The only problem is the place between the bars, which I think you would call C5 to Bb3. I can play the scales you suggested, only the jump is problematic.
I can't move my fingers fast enough to play the Bb3 in time, unless I drop some of the last notes in the first bar, which seems to be the best solution at the moment, since I only got the sheet music two days ago, and tomorrow is the last day I have to practice it.
I just want to make sure it is actually possible to play the jump from C5 to Bb3 at that speed, and it would just take more practice, or is it hopeless?
I had two days to practice the piece so far and tomorrow it is the final practice day for me. Then we have a two hour rehearsal on the day and of the concert.
I guess there is nothing to add other than ClariBone's advice, which I'm doing already. Hopefully one of the other 8 or 9 bass clarinetists playing the exact same part as me had more practice time and will be able to cover me if I can't play it by the concert ![[grin]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie5.gif)
P.S. Don, I just want to make sure your email in your profile on this forum is the right one, since I'll include you in my mouthpiece test, thanks.
Post Edited (2005-10-18 16:37)
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2005-10-18 17:07
I think the problem is as much mental as physical.
Try playing the first measure plus only the first note of the second measure an octave higher. That is, go down only a step to throat Bb, instead of a ninth. You need to move more fingers to do go down a step (all of them on your left hand) than you do to go down a ninth, but I'd bet that it gives you no trouble.
Going down the ninth involves raising the bottom three fingers on your right hand and letting the register key close. The physical part is rather easy.
So, practice the second beat of the first measure as written, and the first beat of the second measure an octave higher.
Then, practice the second beat of the first measure an octave lower and the first beat of the second measure as written.
Then, play Bb-C-Bb (throat-clarion-throat) 10 times at an easy speed. Then Bb-C-low Bb 10 times, striving for the same easy finger movement. Then alternate 5 + 5, 4 + 4, 3 + 3, 2 + 2 and 1 + 1.
Part of the problem is that you have a lot of left hand movement on the second beat of measure 1. Have someone watch your left index finger and thumb, or watch yourself in a mirror. It's likely that you're doing contortions. Minimize the movement. Keep your left index finger knuckle touching or almost touching the throat Ab key, so that you make almost no movement to open it. Don't roll your index finger up to the A key. Just nudge it. Keep your thumb near the register key, and, again, just nudge it.
Finally, don't bang the keys down. Keep your hands relaxed and your finger motions as light as possible.
The passage is possible if you cut out the excess movement.
Ken Shaw
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2005-10-18 19:02
Out of curiousity, what's the dynamic there?
US Army Japan Band
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2005-10-19 05:30
Thank you very much Ken. After trying it for more time I figured the exact problem. Like Ken guessed, the fingers are not the problem. It is my mouth. I can't play C5 to Bb3 legato. Even slower I can't do it. When I play these two bars slower I can do a light tounge fast enough on the Bb3, but at the marked speed I can't tounge fast to exactly attack on the Bb3.
On Bb clarinet I can play a legato from C5 to Bb3, so it is something that I just can't do on bass. On the bass when I try it I get an overtone on the Bb3, but when I lightly tounge the Bb3 comes out. It is strange, since I don't change my embochure at all, just lightly tounge (I wouldn't even call it staccato since the tounge is so gentle, almost not heard).
I guess I'll start practice legato jumps on the bass clarinet.
Alexi, the dynamic is close to the end of a cresc. from mf to f.
By the way, the piece will be played by at least 120 bass clarinets.
Thanks again everybody.
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2005-10-19 05:53
Try preparing for the lower note earlier. Reverse the leap and see if it is easier. If it is then you should try voicing the lower note while playing the upper note. It might be that the register key might have to come off earlier to help with this. Since it is only on for the C .....try not using the register key at all.....C should come out....(I don't have a clarinet with me to test this out now).. Just some thoughts...
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2005-10-19 06:40
Thank you Arnold.
Playing Bb3 to C5 is no problem, only the other way is. I have tried voicing the C5 as the Bb3, but not without the register, so I'll try that too.
"It might be that the register key might have to come off earlier to help with this. Since it is only on for the C ....."
Actually, I use the register key for the Bb too....
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2005-10-19 16:43
It may help to realise, and then put into practice, that the tongue 'interrupts' the C rather than 'starts' the Bb. (The Bb starts, of course, when the tongue releases the reed, and is a response of the newly freed reed to the airpressure inside the mouth.)
Much difficulty in clarinet playing is caused by the notion that the tongue can 'start' anything.
Tony
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Author: Don Poulsen
Date: 2005-10-19 17:14
Sounds like someone is at the First World Bass Clarinet Convention.
Tell us about it when it's over. Worth going to? Are they recording the piece?
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2005-10-19 20:06
Tony, English is not my first langauge sorry if I wasn't clear about something. I basically meant the notes are so fast that I can't make the tounge movement fast enough.
Is it supposed to be as smooth on bass as on Bb to do a legato C5 to Bb3? Now I noticed that even if I start playing Bb3 from nothing (as in no note before the Bb3) without a light tounge touch I can't get the Bb3 (and all the lower notes) to play right away. I get an overtone for a second and only then the Bb3 comes out. What am I doing wrong?
Don, I'm not there yet, it starts on Friday, and I'll be there when it starts. I hope they'll record it, but if not, I'll ask if I can record it with my MP3 player, which is very bad quality, but better than nothing I guess.
Thanks very much everybody.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2005-10-19 21:58
Now I don't understand. Anyone can tongue 2 notes per second, which is all you are doing in the excerpt you posted, since you say the tempo is 120 and the notes are slurred in groups of 6.
Maybe it's that you're having trouble getting your tongue synchronized with your fingers on the jump down from C to Bb.
If that's the problem, try to lighten up your tongue stroke. Play an easy note -- say the low Bb -- and brush the tip of your tongue gently up across the tip of the reed at an easy tempo -- say two per second.
When you get that perfectly steady, play an easy interval -- say low Bb to the C just above. Slur this in ordinary sixteenths at 120 -- that is, 4 notes per beat -- and tongue every 4 notes. Practice until you get the tongue stroke perfectly between the groups of 4, starting the Bb easily.
Then, increase the tempo to 6 notes per beat at 120, still slurring only 1 step up and down and tonguing every 6 notes.
Then change the notes to those in the first beat of bar 2 (Bb up through G), repeating the 6 notes over and over, tonguing each time on the Bb.
Then repeat the notes in the second beat of measure 1 (Eb up through C), again slurred and tonguing each time on the Eb.
Then do it as written, playing the entire two measures.
I know it's hard to get the low Bb to speak after playing the C a ninth higher. The secret is changing the position of the back of your tongue and your soft palate, which I wrote about in my earlier message. Set your metronome at 60 and play the C-Bb interval tongued, one note per beat, and putting a light tongue stroke exactly between the notes. Do this until you are completely familiar with what it feels like to play each note, and you can move easily and quickly from one "feel" to the other.
If you use a heavy tongue stroke, you change the position of your tongue, soft palate and, probably, your embouchure. It's vitally important to use the least possible motion -- to avoid making a "lurch" trying to get to the second measure.
Ken Shaw
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Author: saturnsax
Date: 2005-10-20 04:12
In those situations since you are not playing too high. I would try playing the section without using the octave key. Being a saxplayer who started on clarinet, I've learned techniques on the sax that I've put to the clarinet.
this technique takes practice but is great when you learn it. All you have to do is hearing the notes in your head and play the c using the technique when you play the highest notes on the clarinet. arching your toungue and speeding up the velosity of the air column to make the clarinet jump to the higher octave.
I learned how to play taps on the sax by fingering low Bb and pushing to the next overtone. This is a saxophonist first lesson to begin multiphonic studies.
Post Edited (2005-10-20 04:13)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2005-10-20 05:08
Ken Shaw wrote:
"Maybe it's that you're having trouble getting your tongue synchronized with your fingers on the jump down from C to Bb."
That is exactly what I meant. It is a little hard for me to explain in English so I understand if my explanation wasn't clear. Thank you very much for your help!
Saturnsax, thanks for your suggestions too.
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2005-10-20 05:27
Of course you use your register key for Bb. I responded late at night so my brain wasn't working too well. Try playing up to tempo but leaving the C out. Then try it with the C......but try not to use the register key for C. It might be technically difficult to do this as you have it on with the Bb.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: saturnsax
Date: 2005-10-20 20:21
another thing you can try to get the jump down is to play the Bb and C in reverse in order to get a feel for the two notes. This way you are jumping up instead of down.
I was always taught to learn a hard section by trying to play it backwards in order for my fingers to get used to dificult passages. This way you can get your fingers used to the easier jump and then reverse it to the written jump.
Those should be the only two notes you need to practice at this time to get it right. Once you get the reversed jump down to a good speed, try it the other way.
the largest clarinet i have is an alto clarinet. i woodshedded it for about 40 minutes o get it down. this is a difficult one but thanks for the piece. it has helped my technique for that jump. i can imagine how hard it is on a base clarinet. good luck this is a hard one..
Post Edited (2005-10-20 20:44)
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