 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: RodRubber
Date: 2005-10-18 17:32
It is clear that many of us use the v12 reed with great success. Generally, our complaint about this product, and other vandoren reeds, is the uneveness of quality of the material. I think some smart company should make exact copies of the v12 reed (and other very popular ones) but make it out of the highest quality material. Obviously, the v12 is a morre style reed, and there are other morre style reeds (fofs etc) but i think someone should make an exact copy of it, perhaps with the great argentina cane.
I know that many of us have used reed making machines with the v12 as a model. But, for me, and many others, this would be far too time consuming and annoying. Any thoughts on this?
Best -
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Author: msloss
Date: 2005-10-18 20:44
So you are recommending cloning somebody else's industrial design and selling it? That's a good basis for a lawsuit, and not the action of a "smart" company. V12 may be a thick-blank reed inspired by the Morre, but it is far from a copy. If you are a fan of the Argentinian cane, there are plenty of interesting options, including the Gonzalez RC and FOFs, Zonda, and Mozart.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2005-10-18 21:06
The V12 may have been inspired by the Morré reed but it is nothing like the original.
As Greg Smith once said:
"...The V12 style would never have been developed if it were not for it's predecessor, the Morré. The difference being -amongst other things - that it seems Vandoren wanted the V12 to play right out of the box for mass marketing purposes...hence the comparative flimsy quality of the V12's in relation to the Morrés of the 1960's and early 70's..."
I used Morré reeds exclusively until their cane and quality declined severely in the early '70's. Sure, not all were great (some were like tissue paper and some were like trees), but many played perfectly, with little or no adjustment right out of the box. A great Morré reed had a beautiful color palette, a distinct ring, and projection like nothing else available.
...GBK
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Author: Wayne Thompson
Date: 2005-10-18 22:31
Rodrubber,
Regardless of msloss's comment that your idea is bad business, I'm curious about your success copying the V12 yourself. If you make 10 copies on your reedmaking machine, will you get mostly good reeds? More good reeds than you are used to getting from a box of V12's?
Wayne T.
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Author: David Niethamer
Date: 2005-10-19 02:46
Wayne T wrote:
>I'm curious about your success copying the V12 yourself. If you make 10 >copies on your reedmaking machine, will you get mostly good reeds? More >good reeds than you are used to getting from a box of V12's?
On my DeLutis "Reed Machine" I get 4-6 workable reeds from a tube which produces 8 blanks. I use a V12 model and Argendonax cane (Zonda, FOF, etc.) I prefer the shape of the V1q2 cut, but greatly prefer the Argendonax cane. One of the benefits of making reeds is that they last much longer than commercial reeds, and another is that you can "cure" the blanks to minimize warping before you make the reed. the drawback to all this is that reed making is very time consuming. As a professional orchestra player, I found the reed making time was well invested given the stability and longevity of the reeds that worked.
David N
David
niethamer@aol.com
http://members.aol.com/dbnclar1/index.html
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Author: RodRubber
Date: 2005-10-19 03:51
David -
For you, Did the finished reed exhibit similar (hopefully many if the better) qualities to v12s? For me, they did, and that is exactly what im going for here.
msloss -
Obviously, the copying etc, lawsuits, or whatever is not exactly the question here. Thanks for your suggestion of the interesting options. I am well aware of them, and indeed have tried them extensively. It seems that im hooked on v12.
Best -
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Author: Wayne Thompson
Date: 2005-10-19 05:40
Interesting to me.....
I've never made reeds.
Here's another more basic question. I understand that a manufacturer makes a batch of reeds to the same dimensions, and then measures their flexibility (strength) and only then assigns numbers for their strength. Rod rubber and David, is this true? In that case you must get different strengths of reeds in your batches. True?
WT
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Author: crnichols
Date: 2005-10-19 07:12
This is a little off of this subject, but I'm curious if any of you have compared the ReeDuAl with the Reed Machine, and what your observations were.
Christopher Nichols
1st Infantry Division Band
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Author: msloss
Date: 2005-10-19 12:06
RodR, it is precisely the question. You very clearly stated "I think some smart company should make exact copies of the v12 reed..."
As David rightly points out, using the meticulous process he follows the yield is going to be higher, but that comes at the cost of time. In real-world terms, that would translate into a very expensive box of reeds for the majority of people not sitting in pro orchestras. After Clark Brody taught me to make reeds (from a Morre blank btw), I looked at the time commitment and opted for the commercial reed route, adjusting them to taste rather than making from scratch. My own preference, and not for everyone. With a little knife-work I can get 6-8 reeds out of every 10 regardless of brand (suitable to the mouthpiece) to play, and maybe 2-3 of those are good enough to take on stage.
Reed cane is obviously an organic substance, and doesn't automatically grow in half- or quarter-strengths to suit clarinet players. When Vandoren grades the reeds, each strength index is going to include reeds that range to either side of the ideal, but the median should be close to that number. They chose 1/2 steps while Gonzalez went for 1/4 steps, so it is reasonable to expect a wider range of reeds in a box. Even so, Vandie woke up to the market demand for more precision in the grading for the Rue Lepic and introduced a 3.5+ in the gap between 3.5 and 4.0.
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2005-10-19 13:00
I'm interested in msloss's claim that a maker who copied a reed design could be sued. Is this really so? I see no suggestion in Vandoren's packaging that they regard their design as protected intellectual property. If it had features that were patented, that would be a different matter, but so far as I can see it has not. Does copyright law apply to an object like a reed?
I note that there are craftsmen who will copy an existing mouthpiece. Presumably, they are not sued for their pains?
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If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2005-10-19 14:30
As am ex automotive engineer, I can assure that copying something like a read profile is a minor incursion compared to standard practice in the auto industry.
Anything that can be bought commercially is considered fair game for adoption. The only exception seems to be software --like the computer programs that control active stability enhancement systems.
While these huge companies can afford defense attornies, no one seems to mount any suits.
And, in fact, Toyota challenges the rest of the world to try to keep up with them.
Bob Phillips
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Author: msloss
Date: 2005-10-19 16:04
And sooner or later even some of those chickens come home to roost. How about Robert Kearns and the the quite ubiquitous and unremarkable intermittent windshield wiper? Or Infiniti getting their kimonos in a twist over Audi's decision to use the letter 'Q'?
I dunno. I don't even play a lawyer on TV. Seems to me if you can go to court to ask for an injunction (whether or not you succeed) over a letter of the alphabet, some enterprising lawyer could sue to protect a reed design. Besides, we (US, EMU) are crying dirty pool every day over China's lack of protections on products they consider easy to copy. Would Vandoren pursue a course of action if somebody tried it? Maybe not. Tiny French company. Could they? Hey, America baby. We don't have the highest per capita level of attorneys in the world for nothing!
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