 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: 3dogmom
Date: 2005-10-12 22:04
I have read previous postings on CSOs (Clarinet Shaped Objects) and know what people's thoughts are. Are you aware that, this year, Selmer has cheapened the quality of their student model? It resembles one of the CSO's. I was shocked at the quality, although they have put some nifty gold-colored trim around the outside of the case. All the corks/tenons are poorly fitting and the kids can't put them together. They all need sanding. This is the model our vendor has usually provided. We're certainly not accepting any more.
There's another new one out - anyone heard of a "Hawk" CSO? It feels as though it's made of sawdust. The bridge mechanism is very strange.
I put out a letter to parents indicating that, if they chose not to go with our local vendor, they would be well advised to beware of the internet and the local "box" store, and provided a list of decent models. I offered to help anyone who wanted my help. What does it take to get parents to listen? I am really dismayed at how many took the cheap route this year. Their 9 or 10 year old looks up at me tearfully and asks why they can't put their clarinet together, or why it won't work, and it's infuriating because I can't (or won't) tell them it's because of their parent.
Who is still making a quality student clarinet? What are you folks finding this year?
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Author: ClariBone
Date: 2005-10-12 22:11
I used an Olds as a sixth grade beginner. It played well enough for me to get into District Honor Band. Don't remember about intonation though (before I knew to listen. Ahh, ignorance is bliss, lol!!!!). Seemed easy enough to play. Don't know about their quality now though...
Aren't Bundys pretty dependable??
I wouldn't recommend Artleys. They make much better flutes than clarinets (use one at school because I'm afraid to bring my "good" clarinet to school).
I'd still have the parents stick with the Big 4 however. Easier to get technicians to work on those than some of the other brands (children are known to break instruments).
Hope this Helped!!
Clayton
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Author: GBK
Date: 2005-10-12 22:34
3dogmom wrote:
> Who is still making a quality student clarinet?
The Forte clarinet is far superior to any student line clarinet currently available ...GBK
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2005-10-12 22:57
Bundy's may be dependable but Selmer hasn't made them for a long time. For new instruments, of the big 4, I think I would look first at Yamaha and then perhaps Leblanc. It has been reported on the board before that Buffet has started cutting corners on their student models (e.g., plastic rings). I recently played a new Yamaha student bass clarinet and was very impressed. Their student flutes and oboes are highly regarded. (I have one of their flutes and am impressed with the workmanship.) IMO, Yamaha has always delivered high value for the price. I use a Leblanc Vito V40 as my "bad weather" clarinet. If the standard Vito is close in quality, I think it is worth looking at.
Disclaimer: I have not personally played any of the following models. My comments are second hand.
Forte clarinets have received generally positive reviews on this board. You can see pictures and read about them here:
http://www.doctorsprod.com/forte.html
The price seems quite reasonable.
Another maker (English) that has generally earned positive reviews and is probably worth looking at is Hanson:
http://www.hansonclarinets.com/
You might also consider Tom Ridenour's Arioso clarinets (I don't know what their price points are but I suspect they are a bit higher.) Some info about them here:
http://www.ridenourclarinetproducts.com/clarinets.htm
Best regards,
jnk
Post Edited (2005-10-13 16:24)
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Author: hans
Date: 2005-10-12 23:50
3dogmom,
About two years ago I volunteered at an elementary school to help students learn to play clarinet and sax. I often had to play-test their instruments, which were school-supplied plastic student model Yamahas. These were decent, sturdy instruments that stood up well to use by grade 6/7/8 students. If Yamaha has not made any changes to the quality, these could be considered in addition to the recommendations above.
I have no relationship with any maker of musical instruments, other than ownership of some Selmers and a Cartier .
Regards,
Hans
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Author: pewd
Date: 2005-10-13 02:00
Forte or Buffet E11.
Forte's are cheaper, and play very well.
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: GBK
Date: 2005-10-13 02:01
I agree with Hans.
My second choice of a student line clarinet, after the Forte, would be the entry level Yamaha, which I now believe is called the YCL-250.
It is solidly built, with very good intonation and its ruggedness stands up to beginners...GBK
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2005-10-13 04:35
Forte & Yamaha, & Yamaha & Forte.
I cannot endorse an instrument like the student Buffet when the manufacturer stoops so low as to make plastic 'reinforcing' rings'!!!
They would have done a lot better to not use rings at all. Two thin layers of plastic is MUCH weaker than one thick layer of plastic.
Buffet has DOUBLY sacrificed strength - first by using plastic, and secondly, laminating the plastic) entirely for cosmetics and cheap manufacture.
To my knowledge, Yamaha and Forte still retain quality manufacturing features such as screwed-in posts.
Post Edited (2005-10-13 04:37)
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2005-10-13 05:06
My borrowed, $100 pawn shop Yamaha plastic loaner from last week was entirely adequate! It was several years old, and its mpc was not good, but the horn played very well.
Bob Phillips
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Author: allencole
Date: 2005-10-13 08:45
Let's not forget our friends at the Woodwind. "MY students play Barrington!" Downright scary...
Parents are a hard sell when it comes to quality instruments vs. CSO's which carry a warranty. Also, I've seen more and more band directors send people to chain stores and the internet than local stores.
Sorry to hear that Selmer and Buffet are giving in. Sometimes I wonder what's the use...
Allen Cole
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-10-13 11:08
I've got an old Yamaha YCL-25 which I might make the owner an offer on, so I can repad it and use this myself - it's the nearest thing to a plastic Selmer (Paris) there is! The keywork is excellent, and I compared it to the new 250, and the keywork on both of these is not going to bend in a hurry.
I like the scalloped bell on the new Yamahas - nice to see a feature they've taken from pro Buffets is being used on an entry level instrument as well as their pro models, and strange Schreiber don't do this themselves on their B12s.
I prefer the early B12s than the current ones, the whole construction was better. I remember they used the larger nickel plated plastic bell ring when they reintroduced the bell ring again which was a good idea in terms of saving some weight, but having all nickel coated plastic joint rings s a bad idea - and they don't even mention this in their catalogue, only listing the B10 as having plastic rings.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2005-10-13 11:09)
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Author: 3dogmom
Date: 2005-10-14 20:41
thanks for the suggestions, it sounds like Forte and Yamaha are the way to go. Has anybody seen a brand new Yamaha this year? Any downgrading happening there?
Sue Tansey
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Author: redwine
Date: 2005-10-14 23:27
Hello,
The Forte is a very good clarinet and one that I recommend.
For just a little more money, the Leblanc intermediate (wooden) clarinet is very nice too. I've forgotten the model name, but the price is about $700. I was actually amazed at how well it played when I first tried one at a music show about 2 years ago.
Ben Redwine, DMA
owner, RJ Music Group
Assistant Professor, The Catholic University of America
Selmer Paris artist
www.rjmusicgroup.com
www.redwinejazz.com
www.reedwizard.com
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Author: 3dogmom
Date: 2005-10-15 01:28
I'll have to check out the LeBlanc. We get our instruments through a large local dealer, who has been using Selmer for the last several years. As this has to stop, I've got to see what else I can get them to provide my students - or find another dealer.
So it looks like LeBlanc, Forte, or Yamaha, barring any degradation on the part of Yamaha or LeBlanc. Thanks, everybody.
Sue Tansey
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Author: Claire
Date: 2005-10-15 04:27
I'm living in a small town area, and it seems that the majority of the music stores in the area sell the E.M. Winston clarinets. Every single one of these instruments seem to have a problem with them. On one, the cork disintegrated and the metal is soft. Although, the metal seems to be soft on all of these instruments. On another one, there's a leak (brand new instrument) and one of the springs doesn't provide enough resistance. At first it wasn't providing any resistance. And, it's a very expensive instrument usually selling for about 6 - 800 dollars.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2005-10-15 06:09
".....Has anybody seen a brand new Yamaha this year? Any downgrading happening there?"
Yes, the one that is "made in Indonesia".
Although it is different in a few minor ways, I could find no reason to reject it. However what is marketed in USA may be different.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-10-15 12:52
Although Yamaha have been making instruments and parts outside Japan for a while, they still have their reputation to maintain, and the quality is still as good as I expect to see from them.
But I have noticed their current 62 series saxes now have plastic finger buttons rather than genuine pearl, which is a shame. I'm still waiting for the 875 bari sax to materialise - it's a long time coming this one - in other words 'Get your arses into gear Yamaha!'.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2005-10-15 14:42
I'm rather inclined to think that plastic lasts at least as well as shell. Perhaps it is not attacked by finger acids. It doesn't chip or crack.
I can see nothing wrong with plastic in this location.
I don't hear the same complaints about plastic (rather than timber) mouthpieces :-) Methinks the problem may be in the mind.
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Author: rogerb40uk
Date: 2005-10-15 15:34
I wonder if/suspect that Chris's 'complaint' is for aesthetic rather than practical reasons?
Best regards
Roger
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Author: rogerb40uk
Date: 2005-10-16 10:35
> Yes.... is that a different way of saying the same thing?
I wouldn't have said so; plastic may do a quite satisfactory job, but one may just like the appearance of mother-of-pearl (or, in NZ , paua shell) Gordon (NZ) wrote:
Best regards
Roger
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-10-16 12:46
I prefer the feel and grip of natural pearl - plastic buttons feel slippery, especially on alto and tenor where the LH pearls can get wet easily (as water pours out the LH palm keys).
And yeah, I like the look of pearl - it has more depth than plastic. But at least they can (both plastic and pearl) be removed when it comes to repadding so there's no risk of scorching or melting them - plastic stands greater risk of getting scorched than natural pearl.
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Author: William
Date: 2005-10-16 15:14
If you can find an old "vintage" Bundy clarinet, that would be my recommendation. Almost any problem it might have--pads, corks, key alignment, etc--can be repaired, usually for a minimal expense. And--equipped with a good mouthpiece--it will play as good as any new plastic student clarinet available on todays market. And often at a fraction of the price.
Selmer Bundy "Resonite" clarinets, introduced in the 1950's--still the best non-wood clarinet there there ever was (IMNOH opinion, that is). It would be another marketing error if it is true that Selmer has discontinued this line of clarinet.
BTW, I had always thought that if Selmer had introduced a Bundy low C bass clarinet with a double octave mechanizm and the rest of the "bells and whistles" avaialbe, there would be no good reason for us all to rush out and buy those overly expensive wooden models put out by LeBlanc and Buffett--and Selmer, I guess.................(oh well, just a thought)
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2005-10-16 21:17
Jack Kissinger wrote:
> Forte clarinets have received generally positive reviews on this board. You
> can see pictures and read about them here:
I would very much hope they put more effort into clarinet making than in web site design. By the site alone I'd never consider buying Forte... <shudders> sometimes less is more.
Sorry for being off-topic, I'll shut up now...
--
Ben
Post Edited (2005-10-16 21:17)
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Author: GBK
Date: 2005-10-16 21:34
tictactux wrote:
> sometimes less is more.
The Buffet web site, which has gone through many iterations over the years, also still leaves a lot to be desired.
Don't judge the Forté by its web site. It is, without comparison, the best student level clarinet on the market.
Two years ago, when I first was sent a prototype of the Forté for evaluation, suggestions, and comments, I predicted it would soon be the preferred clarinet for students. (my original comments are posted on the Forté web site) Band directors and music teachers have since proved me correct.
Other manufacturers would do well to incorporate the many design features of the Forté clarinet.
( Disclaimer - I was one of the professionals who was asked to test the Forté clarinet. I was happy to participate and we received no compensation for our services )
...GBK
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2005-10-16 21:48
GBK wrote:
> Don't judge the Forté by its web site.
I didn't mean to - sorry if that impression came up.
It's just that I sometimes wonder why on earth throw money and time into a bad web site when you then have to rely (and additionally compensate for your mediocre internet presence) on word of mouth?
If a thing isn't worth to be done right it isn't worth to be done at all. Needn't be fancy and flashing, plain old pen and paper style would suffice.
Will a horn sound mellow when it screams into my eyes? ;-)
--
Ben
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2005-10-17 02:49
Haven't the "big box" type retailers always sold musical instruments? I remember seeing all kinds of wind instruments, as well as string and "rock" band stuff in the Sears Christmas Catalog when I was a kid (and that was in the 70's).
I'm not saying that they should do this, merely that they have. IMHO, Target is the modern-day Sears in that it's the place people go for all kinds of inexpensive stuff.
Katrina
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-10-17 13:37
I'm wondering if Woolworths, Matalan and Netto will follow suit.
Who knows where that'll lead - Right Price or Poundland clarinets?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2005-10-17 16:04)
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2005-10-17 20:36
Chris P wrote:
> I'm wondering if Woolworths, Matalan and Netto will follow suit.
> Who knows where that'll lead - Right Price or Poundland clarinets?
The famous "Dollar Store" brand? ;-)
Here we have exactly the opposite: Yamaha, Buffet, occasionally a "German" brand, very rarely a Vito, that's it.
All the other stuff is mail-order (pay before you touch) only.
--
Ben
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Author: Low_Reed
Date: 2005-11-09 13:14
I hope there is not a similar degradation in Selmer's low (resonite) clarinet offerings this year. I'm particularly interested in the 1440 contra-alto. The pipeline for this model appears to have been dry for several months - WWBW keeps pushing back their availability date (at least 4 times since the beginning of August). So I'm guessing that Selmer may be readying a new model. I just hope it doesn't have the same "improvements" that their new soprano model has.
Has anyone seen any new 1440's recently, or do you know anything about the extent of Selmer's resonite clarinet model overhaul?
Thanks,
Bruce
**Music is the river of the world!**
-- inspired by Tom Waits and a world full of music makers
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Author: Malcolm Martland
Date: 2005-11-09 13:29
Tesco in UK are also selling clarinets, flutes and alto saxophones. They are branded Odyssey but I have no idea of the quality.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2005-11-09 13:31
> Odyssey
Maybe a subtle hint at what happens when you need support?
--
Ben
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2005-11-09 14:38
You know, 3dogmom, if you've got several students you can buy from Dr. Henderson at a bigger discount. You can get 4 Forte' clarinets and buy like a dealer. You could even make a few bucks from the sale if you wanted to add $50.00 or so when you sold them to the parents. The Forte' will certainly outplay the cheap Selmers and other off-brands out there. You should get with Dr. Henderson about this--or get your music store back home to contact him about selling them in their store.
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Author: equi47
Date: 2005-11-09 16:49
Maybe it is worthwhile to also remind or teach parents that quality instruments can also be rented? I know when I started playing my parents did not have the financial means to buy outright a great clarinet, so instead they rented me a wonderful Vito model. It held up all the way through high school and I performed my senior solo & ensemble on it to a superior rating -and- I was consistently first chair. I really wish I still had that clarinet...
Just my 2 cents.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2005-11-09 19:03
> Maybe it is worthwhile to also remind or teach parents that quality
> instruments can also be rented?
Do such renting plans include some kind of buying option (similar to leasing)?
What happens with all those rented-and-returned horns once they are written off?
--
Ben
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Author: Bill
Date: 2005-11-09 19:29
This sounds weird, but I have a longing to own a restored B&H Edgware or Penzel-Mueller or something that would serve as a "practice clarinet." Truth be told, one doesn't always want Dom Perignon. I have been blessed with many fine instruments, but sometimes I'm in the mood for a piece of junk that I can pull out and play without .... well, without any "attitude" - in my pajamas. Like a beat-up old upright piano ... or like Pee Wee Russel's every-day clarinet (from what I read in the bio of him - the guy wasn't into maintenance - of his horn or himself!!!!).
Once, on the streets of Washington, DC, I passed a gentlemen seated on the streetside pavement outside a restaurant. He was playing a B&H Edgware. His sound was, well, fabulous. As long as I live and play, I cannot forget that image. The guy was taking money in a hat (I didn't donate - still regret not doing so). Something about his dexterity on that old Edgware, his ease and smoky, sleek tone, have fired me for so, so long. Here was greatness.
I want a hunk of junk!
Bill.
Bill Fogle
Ellsworth, Maine
(formerly Washington, DC)
Post Edited (2005-11-09 19:35)
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Author: equi47
Date: 2005-11-09 20:20
"Do such renting plans include some kind of buying option (similar to leasing)?
What happens with all those rented-and-returned horns once they are written off?"
Mine did. I rented that Vito until I owned it. Then when I quit playing during college and needed the money, I sold it. Grrr... I also did a rental plan on a nice E-flat. However, I turned that one back in before I owned it. I believe most stores just sterilize/repair/etc and return them into the rental program, or sell them as used goods.
Jami
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2005-11-09 21:11
I used rent to own all of the time back in the 1970's when I needed a horn for a show that I was doing. English horn, baritone sax (horrid horn, worst that I ever had played to that point), and even a bass sax at one point.
I kept the bass sax for a few months, then had to decide whether or not to keep it for good. At that point the contract had a year and a half to run, and I wanted to buy a sailboat. So I dumped it, thinking that I needed the boat more than a huge honking monster of a horn.
Had I paid off the rest of the balance due, I would have had my very own bass sax for all of $650 or so...
When we are young, we don't always thing straight...
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-11-09 21:32
I don't know, Terry, I was once forced to play a bass sax that I wouldn't have paid $6.50 for (in today's dollars)............
And sailboats sure are fun on a breezy day!
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Author: 3dogmom
Date: 2005-11-09 23:05
In response to Brenda's posting about getting with the Doctor, I think that is an excellent idea. I did forward his phone number to my dealer, but they appear to be dragging their feet about contacting him. I think most of my students for the year have signed up by now, but I would like to try the horn out, and get something in place for next year.
How did this thread get resurrected so far after the fact?
Sue Tansey
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-11-09 23:15
Malcolm,
I keep getting this flippin' magazine sent to me - 'Gear' - I have no idea why as I'm not interested and have never knowingly subscribed, but still they keep coming ad nausaeum.
And they always rave about 'Odyssey' flutes, clarinets and saxes in there - even showing a photo of a left-handed tenor(!)
Maybe they've chosen the name 'Odyssey' because of the band of the same name's popular hit - 'Use It Up, Wear It Out' - I doubt they'll last long, and will all end up in landfill sites along with wetlife CDs.
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Author: marzi
Date: 2005-11-10 03:47
equi47-
same here, my parents bought my plastic vito thru the schools many monthly payments plan, also took me all the way thru high school and didn't keep me from playing first solo chair positions. And then my son got to learn on it, quite a value! I'm amazed at the expensive clarinets parents will buy their kids right from the start now,only to have it sit unplayed, and yet, it still may be the kid with the least expensive clarinet who sits first chair as our neighbors kid does now. (his mom found it in a second hand store).
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2005-11-10 14:34
Sue, I was wondering how this thread got resurrected as well. Someone probably did a search for something in particular (like Forte' clarinets) and it popped up.
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