 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: chazman
Date: 2005-10-08 14:14
Good morning,
I am looking for professional help regarding the sound, quality, craftsmanship and specification for the following LeBlanc clarinets: LL, L27, Symphony, and Artist 45.
The big picture question is I currently own both a symphony and Artist 45. I am considering purchasing a LL or L27, if I do what if any appreciable differences will be noticed over the clarinets I currently own. Any professional opinions and information will be greatly appreciated.
Thank you
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-10-08 14:21
I think the general build quality on the older Leblanc LL and L27 models is much better than any of the more recent clarinets to come from Leblanc (from the time the Concerto was introduced), I personally would never buy a brand new Leblanc clarinet, if I was to, then the chances are I'll strip it right down and start again - but the tone quality on the Concerto II is fantastic, just a shame the workmanship lets it down.
I'm probably opening a can of worms in saying that, but someone has to.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2005-10-08 14:41)
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Author: chazman
Date: 2005-10-08 14:27
Where then would you place my older Symphony, and Artist 45 in this mix?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-10-08 14:37
These would be among the better made Leblancs - I preferred the older 'jump' style side keys, they were very innovative in comparison to the rest that 'offset' them, and the fact it kept the toneholes above the bore centre line avoiding water - the Concerto and Opus players I know complain about water pouring from their side keys, and never encountered this on their older Dynamic H and LL models which I think had the best keywork.
I know in terms of economy they have to rationalise things, but I think too many corners have been cut, but still the high pricetag remains for an inferior end product.
Incidentally, I do also play a beautiful full Boehm LL that does the Leblanc name justice.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2005-10-08 14:50)
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2005-10-08 15:18
Com'on out there tell me something wonderful about the top-line rosewood models!
Bob Phillips
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-10-08 15:18
I'll open another can, Chris. I have worked on [thereby playing] a number of Leb's over the years, as I'm sure our pro-repairers have done also. I'll try to put them into "age order" as best I know it. My CA son has "our" earliest, no model name but it has the "jump trill keys" of their patent US 1,926,489 [1933], my CA grandson has a Classic model of the 40's-50's vintage as does my Dynamic 2 [Dyns are all? "big" 15mm bore models, the H and the Pete Fountains etc]. I place the LL [Leon Leblanc, Pres.] as their "flagship" model along with the Symphony series of the 50's-60's. Dee et al, pliz help me. In the 70-80's the various L + number series began, my best Leb is an L7, selected by a pro and sold to me, I did once have an L27, but somehow it was not as good. I have some brochures with later models, and pics-listings of their "special mechanism" series, mainly for their LL, I believe. I'm unfamiliar with the Artist 45 [a Noblet model??]. The bore dimensions up well into the L#'s were cyl. at about 14.8-.85 mm to the best of my knowledge, the later ones prob. having the Upper Joint top enlarged [slightly] ala the Buffet R13's of 1955 {Carree}, conically/polycylindrically, for better 12ths tuning. Others, please help, its a long story being requested. 'Nuff for now, please Search our archives there's a lot out there. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-10-08 15:48
I only know of one Symphonie VII that was in the UK, and that was a demo model. I've got the promo leaflet from the time with Ricardo Morales pictured (with a left-hand drive version!) - again they use the same general keywork as fitted on the Concerto/Ambiance/Opus. Seems they were using the remainder of the older pro keywork up on the Infinite and Esprit at the time.
I never got to try it :^( but liked the idea of plastic bushed toneholes. The only other exotic wood clarinet I HAVE tried was a Howarth S2 in cocobolo, and it was a beauty.
[ Chris P. is an employee of Howarth's and did not disclose such until much later. My apologies for missing this and letting Chris P. misuse this BBoard. Mark Charette ]
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Author: chazman
Date: 2005-10-08 16:29
Wow,
This is a fantastic discussion.....if you were going to rank the: LL, L27, Symphony and the Artist 45. What order of quality would you place them in? And given the chance to assign them on a scale of 1 to 10, what would you give them?
Thank you
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-10-08 16:42
In order of quality (in ascending order) I'd start with Artist 45, L27, LL and Symphony.
Hard to mark out of 10 though.
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Author: chazman
Date: 2005-10-08 17:57
Chris,
This is great information. Thank you so much for your input today. I had no idea that the symphony was superior to the LL. This being the case in you opinion how truly different are they?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-10-08 18:13
The Symphony should be at the same place in the heirarchy that the Concerto and Opus models hold now.
But I've never seen anyone use a Leblanc Symphony in the UK, the top model Leblancs used here were the Dynamic H, LX, L27 and LL until the new models appeared.
The Noblet Artist was the entry level Leblanc built wooden clarinet here (in the same bracket as a Buffet E11 and Yamaha 34II), and the Vito was/is the plastic student model in the same league as a Buffet B12 and Yamaha 26II.
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Author: bill28099
Date: 2005-10-09 14:50
I have owned a Symphonie, and play an LL and also have a Dynamique. I did not really like the Symphonie and traded it to my repair tech for a complete overhaul and silver plating on the LL. If I change back and forth between the Dynamique (#5xx) and the LL (#19XXX) I can tell no difference but really prefer german silver keys vs silver plated so the old early 1950s Dynamique is my prefered horn.
A great teacher gives you answers to questions
you don't even know you should ask.
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2005-10-09 16:41
Variants of the Symphonie have been around since the 40's-50's but apparently not continuously. The last incarnation was the (short-lived rosewood) Symphonie VII which was Leblanc's top-of-the-line model a few years ago. When it has been in the product line, AFAIK, the Symphonie has been Leblanc's top-of-the-line professional model. I have two of the original Symphonies, a Bb and an A. While they may have been top-of-the-line in their day, compared to modern professional clarinets I find them entirely unremarkable. The sample is, or course, too small to draw generalizations from, but I find both rather "stuffy" feeling. On the other hand, I recently overhauled a Symphonie III A for a friend in an orchestra I play in. This was a very nice horn, free-blowing with good intonation. I would say the ranking of Symphonies on your list depends on which version you have. The older ones, IMO rank lower than the newer ones.
The L27 dates from somewhere around the late 70's to the early 80's. It was the successor to the L7 which, according to my information from Dave Surber at Leblanc, was the top-of-the-line professional model when it was introduced. (There was apparently no Symphonie in the line at that time. I haven't played an L27 but I have an L7 (until recently, I had two but I just sold one to a sax player who was looking for a good clarinet as a doubling instrument -- he thinks it's fantastic). Again, too small a sample to generalize, but IMO, my L7 is far superior to my Symphonie. Assuming the L27 is a good one and the model carried on the tradition of its ancestor, and assuming that you have an original Symphonie, I would rank it at the head of your list.
The LL is a professional model, designed by Leon Leblanc, sometimes touted as his "personal" model. It's design is rather different from its contemporaries. If my memory serves (and you can check by searching for previoius threads on this topic), it has a cylindrical bore somewhat larger than its contemporaries both from Leblanc and from the other "big 4" manufacturers. This doesn't necessarily make it better or worse, just different. Generally, from comments of people that I think know what they are talking about, it is a basic professional model, not top-of-the-line (whatever that entails).
While it may be the case in the UK, in general the Artist 45 is not Leblanc's entry-level wooden clarinet. I think that distinction falls to the Normandy. Above the Normandy are two intermediate Noblet models. During the time frame of the Artist 45, the other model was the model 40 which, as its name suggests was the lower level of the two. Leblanc has generally marketed the model 45 as a high-end intermediate model. I have an older one (prior to the "Artist" designation) and that's where I would place it, comparable to a Buffet E12, a bit below an E13.
Overall, then, my ranking would be somewhat different than Chris P.'s. In ascending order of model as marketed by Leblanc: Artist 45, LL, L27, Symphonie. In order of desirability, taking age of instrument into account, I would rank: Artist 45, Symphonie or Symphonie I (and I'm tempted to put the 45 ahead of the early Symphonies), LL, L27, Symphonie III-VII. (A recent LL would rank higher.)
FWIW, I have both Buffet (R13) and Selmer (Series 9) clarinets that are pretty much contemporary with my L7. On a purely subjective basis, I prefer the Buffet and Selmer by a wide margin.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: Mike Blinn
Date: 2005-10-09 17:00
Where would the Leblanc LX fall in this hierarchy? There doesn't seem to be too many around. Was there a design flaw with this model?
Mike Blinn
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-10-09 17:23
I wish I could find my Lewington's pricelist from the mid 80s as they were the main UK distributors for Leblanc and Yamaha (and several other makes besides) back then, and had the entire range of Leblancs listed - and every keywork configuration of LLs, and a good detailed description of every type.
I don't think the LX2000 is made anymore - they've thinned down the lineup loads, and I haven't seen them listed for several years now.
Here's all of what's on offer in the UK and the retail price:
Opus.........£3125 (A £3400, Pair £6800)
Concerto.....£2200 (A £2365, Pair £4760)
Esprit.......£1295 (A £1450, Pair £2860)
Sonata........£995
Vito 7214.....£340
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2005-10-09 19:39)
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Author: chazman
Date: 2005-10-12 16:42
Thank you all for your insight and opinions. I guess my last question or followup to Chris P's posting is the Symphonie I own is the VIII, would that then be the top of the LeBlanc list? Followed by the LL then the L27? Would that be correct hierarchy? Thank you
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Author: chazman
Date: 2005-10-12 17:00
Thank you sfalexi,
I guess to answer that is my inquiry started with if I would notice any appriciable difference betwwen the Syphonie and the LL, and if so what were others experience? I currently own a Leblanc Symphonie, Artist 45 and a Normandy 4. I was wondering if it was even worth purchasing a LL or a L27?
Thank you
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2005-10-12 17:03
Yeah. I just wasn't sure because Chris P's last post was about the respective prices, but I wasn't sure if you were simply looking for an order in that respect.
US Army Japan Band
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Author: chazman
Date: 2005-10-12 17:04
What are your thought on this topic? Either on cost or sound, quality and tone?
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2005-10-12 17:36
I've never tried any leblanc clarinets. So I wouldn't be able to tell ya anything.
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-10-12 18:17
I don't think you can go wrong with the LL model, depending on the condition.
I prefer my LL to current Leblanc instruments - the Concerto and Opus are good, but I think my LL has the edge on both.
Compare your Symphony (or your favourite) directly with the others on offer to see the different playing/tonal characteristics they have, and weigh up the odds to see which you prefer playing.
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Author: super20dan
Date: 2005-10-12 22:57
i have a terrific LL and a symphony model . i once owned a classic model but sold it. these horns hold their own with anything else i have played including my buffet r13 and selmers
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Author: Grant
Date: 2005-10-12 23:15
I own a set of LL's that I traded my Symphonie in on in 1961. I liked the LL"s better but that is me. They have served me well and I don't have any reason to change. The band I play in has newer Leblancs and Buffets strangely no Selmers and for me my LL is just fine.
PS. My wife plays a Vito that she hand picked 30 years ago and her tone and intonation are both very good.
Peace on Earth and May You always have a reed that PLAYS.
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Author: chazman
Date: 2005-10-13 00:38
Thank you all for you great feedback and expert opinions. I now know exactly where to go for advice....many thanks.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-10-13 10:38
It's a shame I never bid for a pair of LL full Boehms back in 1993 - the PAIR went for around £900! (unfortunately I was selling both my D series Selmer basset and bass back then to make some money, not buy more clarinets)
Gutted!
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2005-10-16 21:28
Just for the record, and for the benefit of anyone reading this thread in future, the UK retail prices quoted above for Leblanc instruments are, in most if not every case, far above the price you would actually pay to a reputable retailer. For example, the Concerto (not Concerto II) Bb, listed above as costing £2200, is readily available for around £1300, including tax. This is rather less than you would pay for an R13. The Concerto II Bb is more, but nowhere near £2200.
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If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-10-17 16:11
All the music retailers are trying to compete with the bulk-buying internet companies who can keep their prices low, and yes there are discounts abound - and this is causing problems with long established retailers as there's no profit to be made as customers demand they bring their prices down to or even below the discount prices offered by internet companies.
It's causing problems with the 2nd hand market as well.
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