 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Don Poulsen
Date: 2005-10-07 15:04
This Sunday, the Indianapolis Wind Symphony, which I and another board contributor play with, will be performing the world premier of a symphony by Czech composer Jiri Laburda. From my perspective as a bass clarinetist, one unusual aspect of this piece is that Mr. Laburda, throughout the piece, treats the bass clarinet part more as another of the clarinet parts rather than as a bass part. There are some figures that are not shared with any other part, so it is not just harmonizing. Most of the notes are in the upper register, with very few below first line E. (We could almost play the part more easily if we broke out sopranos and transposed down an octave.) In fact, in the Finale, the bass clarinet part hits the highest note I've ever seen for bass clarinet in band music--a quarter note F# above the staff, followed by a sustained E. (I just need to be concerned about playing them well-enough in tune to avoid a clash with other parts.) Might this be a record, or has anyone seen a higher note for bass clarinet in band music?
(Another piece contains a low C and a low D, so I'll be playing over a range of 3 1/2 octaves in the concert!)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-10-07 15:18
I'm not answering your question, but merely pointing out that a lot of composers tend write for the bass clarinet referring only to the range chart - and they see the (low C) bass clarinet has a full four octave range so they write accordingly, but have no concept of the difficulties getting around some intervals/notes in the altissimo register and upper register.
I think the highest note I've seen written for a bass clarinet part is the alt. F# as well, but can't remember what piece that was in (it's for a symphonic windband). I remember the bass clarinet player having trouble with this part due to the note that came before and slurred up to the F#, and she had to find another way around it, whereas this could have been put on or covered by another clarinet part with no trouble.
Almost the same thing when they write a pp low C#, B or Bb in oboe and sax parts, or a fff low C for flutes!
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Author: LarryBocaner ★2017
Date: 2005-10-07 15:22
I don't have a lot of experience with band music, but parts up to high g are not uncommon in Wagner opera bass clarinet writing. I've played an orchestra pice by Mark-Anthony Turnage called "Three Screaming Popes" where all three clarinets double on bass clarinet with notes above and beyond high G! Also a chamber work "Antechrist" by (if I remember correctly) Richard Rodney Bennett with bass clarinet playing double high D (6 ledger lines ablove the staff). Henri Bok, Josef Horak and Giora Feidman have all recorded solo works extensively using this extreme high register with very good intonation and tone quality.
So get used to it, Don; ain't no big deal! Set four glorious octaves as your new goal.
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Author: BelgianClarinet
Date: 2005-10-07 15:59
Just for a correct understanding, you are refering to the written notes ? not the sounding (which is 1 octave lower when writing in treble clef)
can someone help me out and give the right name for the A at 440 Hz, is this A4 or something else ?
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-10-07 16:33
Hi Belg. - Yes, I, and I'm sure Mark C [see the right-above staff notation] would, agree its A4. On back I asked the question "where does the 'octave #' advance?", and I was told at the C's [not the A's], so 440 is near the top of the 4 "series". To me, its a useful shorthand method, for defining a note, instead of by register [chal., clarion, altis. and high or low therein]. Also I believe the above discussion is by written note, correct me if otherwise, please. The highest note I've had to reach [in tune] was an Eb near the beginning of Der Rosenkavalier Waltzes, concert band arr. by C------?. While warming up before reh., I love to run on up [above G] to "show" the sop cls that its our playground up there too. My Selmer does it easily !! Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-10-07 16:38
Is there no upper limit to a bass clarinet's range?
Mine keeps going up and up and up...
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-10-07 17:14
Chris - My upper limit seems to be dictated by "running out of" embouchure, maybe I'm not able to suppress the lower odd # harmonics, but always can squeek if I try hard. Maybe the large reed gives up also, but really, who cares, just leave the "heights" to the piccs, Ab and Eb cl, oboes and violins. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-10-07 17:24
I think that advice should be heard by modern composers - leave it to those that do, not those that can.
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Author: LarryBocaner ★2017
Date: 2005-10-07 17:27
Don,
Extreme high range on bass clarinet has more to do with air stream and support than it does with "chops". Try focusing your air when you play high by voicing an "ee" sound and visualizing a narrow, swift column of air, all the way down to your diaphraghm. I've taught many students how to play all the way to the upper limits of the instrument using these parameters.
As to "leaving these notes to the piccolos etc", we have a unique tone color to contribute with the bass clarinet in this register, why supress it?
I remember rehearsing a Delius piece with Antal Dorati that had a high range bass clarinet solo. He actually stopped the orchestra after the solo and remarked about the "interesting tone color!"
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Author: Merlin
Date: 2005-10-07 17:31
I've no problem in hitting notes up to D7 on bass clarinet.
The highest things I can recall on an orchestral part were E6 in Pines of Rome (IIRC).
I've played contemporary wind ensemble works with notes up to G6 or A6.
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Author: Mark G. Simon
Date: 2005-10-07 17:49
Meyerbeer's Les Hugenots has a bass clarinet solo that that ends in a G major arpeggio up to the high (written) fourth ledger line G.
Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana--Mediocrates (2nd cent. BC)
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Author: Don Poulsen
Date: 2005-10-07 19:08
BelgianClarinet--Yes, we are talking about the written notes on a treble clef bass clarinet part.
Sometimes, when warming up (or goofing around) before rehearsal, I've played a Bb-concert scale up to C7. Or I would play all 5 of my C, starting with the lowest. Perhaps showing off like Don B. admits to. But I'm not sure how in tune the upper notes were.
My main problem was learning the fingerings, as I don't play soprano regularly and haven't needed to play that high. Actually, I knew fingerings, I just didn't have a good association between them and their written forms. Plus, as I stated before, playing enough in tune, as I know when you reach that high the embouchure plays a big role in what note comes out.
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Author: BelgianClarinet
Date: 2005-10-08 09:34
I heared stories that Horak kan actually play (and use) 6 C's, so a full 5 octaves, this brings the bass on equal heigth as the sorprano, which is amazing.
In most music I play, the bass is 'only used' as a bass clarinet, and most people look rather strange if when warming up on can start down under and keep on going up and up, not 5 octaves ;-), but working hard to get the first 4 correct.
On the naming of the notes we use a different system (french) where some octaves have a name and others are 'dashed'.
the souding octave C4-B4 is called 'little octave', one down is the 'big octave'. I think the history is in the organ
Lower octaves also have a name (like contra, subcontra) , but mostly the are indicated with the note letter in capital (e.g. A) and a dash 'UNDER' the note (I cannot write it here)
Higher notes are marked with little note names (e.g. a) and a dash ABOVE.
But once I get used to using C0 to B10 life might get easier, if ....
everyboby would talk in 'sounding' notes not 'written'.
Actually we use 'do,re,mi,...' for the notes and not A,B,C (ofcourse we know the system, but when you draw a C everyone here will call it 'do'.
we sound like 'the sound of music' ;-), except for the 'ti' which is a 'si'
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-10-08 12:07
Belgianclarinet - one of the systems of notation with dashes looks like this - it uses upper case and lower case letters and a series of dashes to give the designation of all notes:
C0 - B0 = C'' - B''
C1 - B1 = C'- B'
C2 - B2 = C - B
C3 - B3 = c - b
C4 - B4 = c' - b'
C5 - B5 = c'' - b''
C6 - B6 = c''' - b'''
C7 - B7 = c'''' - b''''
C8 = c'''''
And I have seen C4 or 'Middle C' called C3 on some electronic keyboards, just to throw things out the window!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2005-10-08 13:58)
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-10-08 13:50
TKS, Chris, for showing the correspondence of two [best IMHO] "octave name" systems, and I suggest we all use Mark's BBoard system in discussions where individual notes [and ranges] are of importance. For example "I have had some trouble with A5 speaking, so sometimes open the C#/G# pad-key to improve the venting and note-speaking" . Also, TKS, Larry B for the "focusing etc" advice, I'll try it, and determine if I already practice it by "jest doin' what comes nachurlee". Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-10-08 14:14
But you can't use this system when talking about Harp octaves and string names - their octaves are always from F-E regardless of size!
So from the top you have G00 and F00 (G7 & F7),
then 1st octave E down to F (E7 down to F6),
2nd 8ve E - F (E6 - F5),
3rd 8ve E - F (E5 - F4),
4th 8ve E - F (E4 - F3),
5th 8ve E - F (E3 - F2),
6th 8ve E - F (E2 - F1),
7th 8ve E, D and C (E1, D1 & C1).
And that covers all 47 strings, although some Morley harps from the early 20th Century had 48 strings - going up to top A00 (A7 or A''''), so Tchaikovsky's harp cadenza in 'The Nutcracker' (beginning of 'Waltz of the Flowers') could be played exactly as written, not finishing an octave lower as we always hear it.
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Author: BelgianClarinet
Date: 2005-10-08 16:18
"TKS, Chris, for showing the correspondence of two [best IMHO] "octave name" systems, and I suggest we all use Mark's BBoard system in discussions where individual notes [and ranges] are of importance. For example "I have had some trouble with A5 speaking, so sometimes open the C#/G# pad-key to improve the venting and note-speaking" . Also, TKS, Larry B for the "focusing etc" advice, I'll try it, and determine if I already practice it by "jest doin' what comes nachurlee". "
I agree on using a standard system that everone understands, an to avoid confusion, but .. then I still don't know what the BBoard suggestion is.
In particular for the Bass (and that's where this discussion started), is it
a) how it is written ?
b) how it is written + 1 octave correction for the bass ?
c) how it sounds ?
I think for the soprano every body is using the a) (which makes sense becaus it is simpler to discuss fingering etc.), but what for bass clarinet ?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-10-08 16:34
I assume whenever C4 is mentioned, it's referring to the fingered note regardless of which instrument it's on.
So to me, on all clarinets xxx|ooo is always C4,
on all sizes of saxes, oboes, flutes, sarrusophones, etc. xxx|xxxC is C4,
and on all bassoons, including contra xxx|ooo is C3.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-10-08 16:43
Krouse Bass Clarinet Concerto
Those 4 words sum up the "limits" of the bass clarinet in my opinion. It's one wild ride!!
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Author: BelgianClarinet
Date: 2005-10-08 17:35
"I assume whenever C4 is mentioned, it's referring to the fingered note regardless of which instrument it's on.
So to me, on all clarinets xxx|ooo is always C4,
on all sizes of saxes, oboes, flutes, sarrusophones, etc. xxx|xxxC is C4,
and on all bassoons, including contra xxx|ooo is C3."
I'm afraid I have to disagree, for me A4 is 440-442 Hz, whatever instrument.
It's the only way to avoid confusion IMO
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-10-08 17:56
But the confusion can arise when someone asks 'How do I do a Bb4 to C5 trill?' it's the written trill they're referring to (so on all clarinets it's executed Sp A ooo|ooo to Sp A ooo|tr1&tr2 ooo) so that on Eb, Alto, Bass, D, C, A, Basset Horn, Contra-alto etc. this trill will be performed the same way (except on a Leblanc contrabass that has no RH trills) as all clarinets have the same notation regardless of size (unless the bass clarinet is written German-style in bass clef, which is where things will differ).
If A4 strictly meant A440Hz, then you will need to play B4 on a Bb instrument, C5 on an A, G4 on a D clarinet, A4 on a C clarinet, F#4 on an Eb, F#5 on an alto, E5 on a Basset Horn, B5 on a bass, B6 on a contrabass etc. in order to have that particular pitch, A440Hz.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2005-10-08 18:17)
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Author: Max S-D
Date: 2005-10-09 06:50
I saw the Edmund Welles bass clarinet quartet play a couple weeks ago, and they finished the set with a cover of a black metal song by a band called Bethlehem. At the end, Cornelius Boots, the main arranger/composer, played the guitar solo on bass clarinet, and ended on the highest note I've ever heard on a bass clarinet. I started taking lessons with him the week after the concert, and he told me that he wasn't even sure exactly what note he hit at the end of the show, but after listening to the live recording, it was definitely above the range of the guitar!
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2005-10-09 09:30
"Krouse Bass Clarinet Concerto
Those 4 words sum up the "limits" of the bass clarinet in my opinion."
For me the French Trio De Clarinettes is a good example to show the bass clarinet doesn't have limits 
Anyway, I want to buy a recording of this concerto, but couldn't find it on Amazon.com. Do you know any place that will ship internationally with a secured SSL website that stocks it?
Thanks.
Edit: I just listened to the Trio De Clarinettes CD to check how high they get and it is Louis Sclavis that plays F7, and by that I mean the F one octave above the F with three extra lines above the staff. It is a not a squick at all too, it is melodic part he plays around the B6-F7 range.
Post Edited (2005-10-09 10:53)
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