 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-10-05 22:42
It's been many years since I last played a Leblanc low C bass, and have forgotten how the special mechanism for the right hand works (the two vent keys to the right of the lower joint main action, covered by two seperate key guards) - I thought it was an Ab-Bb (or upper register Eb-F) trill, playing Ab (or Eb) and trilling with the middle finger (5) only - but I tried this on one last week and this didn't happen as I thought.
Can someone please tell me what this mechanism is for, and how to use it.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-10-05 22:58
Chris, Assuming I read you correctly, it MAY be just a "fork" fingering to produce the Ab/Eb and ?obviate? the alternate Ab/Eb lever. I had a pro Leb Eb Bass, on back, which had this and I found it very useful, somewhat similar to the U J fork for Eb/Bb . Luck, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-10-06 09:24
Oh I get it - this will make the slur from low Eb up to Ab easy as there's no LH Ab/Eb key! I remember my teacher showing me this on his Leblanc bass, but that was back in about 1990 (I had a Selmer bass then with the LH Ab/Eb).
So Ab/Eb can be played as xxx xox without using the RH Ab/Eb key at all. That makes things much simpler.
I now feel the need to apologise to Leblanc as I've always moaned that they still haven't added the LH Ab/Eb lever in all the years they've been making them, though they have always added this ingenious solution.
I'll pass this on as I know another Leblanc player who complains about the lack of a LH Ab/Eb lever on his low C bass.
Cheers Don.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-10-06 13:12
Glad we got it rite, Chris. I dont recall ever seeing this L J fork on the soprano cls, nor the one alto I've had, but it is only? one of many fork fingerings available on their special alto [and tenor?] saxes of 1960's vintage, I have a beautiful LeBlanc and its Vito "companion" of their Model 100's altos [often called the Buck Rogers {a comics "spaceman"} of those great years]. When in good adjustment [many set screws] they play remarkably well, but lost out in the marketplace to Selmer's Mark 6s and ?7s?, IMHO. I read re: Brad Behn's mps with pleasure, we were playing f[r]iends, [he was so much superior] in his playing days with the Tulsa Philharmonic. He was and still is quite a perfectionist, glad he's becomming well known. REgards, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-10-06 13:37
So it's similar to the older American saxes that had the fork Eb mechanism (the best example being on the older Conn X-bar baris in terms of it's simple design) - so Bb-Eb, B-D#, C-Eb, C#-D# could all be done without sliding the RH little finger between the low C and Eb keys, though on alto and tenor the tone quality of the forked Eb was muffled due to the placement and size of the vent.
I've never seen a true Leblanc sax though - I don't know any UK players that used them, and the only Vito saxes I've seen here were by Yamaha and the Taiwanese-made ones from the late 1990s.
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2005-10-07 01:03
I've used the Leblanc basses with the forked mechanism in the past, and I found them less than facile compared with the side duplication of the Eb lever. The intonation of the forked note was less than perfect, as opposed to the Eb lever's approach of opening the same key as the RH Ab/Eb touchpiece.
And, I've known of a number of players of Leblanc horns (mostly serious students at the university level) who didn't even know that the option existed.
To be fair, I was the guy who played sax for twenty years without ever discovering that any LH little finger key down played G# as long as all of the fingers on the lower stack were up in the air. Sometimes, learning things on your own can lead to less than perfection.
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-10-07 10:55
I must admit that I worked out the linked LH keys myself, after trying out my uncle's Buescher alto sax while on holiday in Texas. My poxy E.German B&S alto didn't have this, but I later went onto a Yamaha 62 which not only had this, but also had the articulated low B-C# link as well!
There's the bit in the bari part of Ted Heath's 'Hot Toddy' that has a low B followed by a G# - I keep the low B key down and then lift off all the RH fingers to get the G#.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2005-10-07 14:27)
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Author: LarryBocaner ★2017
Date: 2005-10-07 13:54
Terry Stribal wrote:
"I've used the Leblanc basses with the forked mechanism in the past, and I found them less than facile compared with the side duplication of the Eb lever. The intonation of the forked note was less than perfect, as opposed to the Eb lever's approach of opening the same key as the RH Ab/Eb touchpiece."
Puzzling! I've played Leblancs for the past 40-some years (Buffet before that) and found the forked Ab/Eb to be very convenient and, on the Leblancs that I've owned, to be indestinguishable in pitch and timbre from the conventional fingering. In at least one instance (Schoenberg Kammersymphonie) a passage that is virtually unplayable on other instruments (ascending fourths: low Eb--Ab--Db 16th notes) is a piece of cake with the forked low Ab! Try that on your Buffet/Selmer.
It's too bad that Leblanc has rested on their laurels while the competition has significantly improved their bass clarinet product. Back in the '60's and 70's when I was dealing with Leblanc (Kenosha) they didn't seem to be much interested in the professional segment--devoted virtually all of their efforts to the music education market. Now that they are a Selmer satellite I don't expect them to much improve on that record.
Larry Bocaner
National Symphony Orchestra (retired)
Post Edited (2005-10-07 15:27)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-10-07 14:02
I see the problem there (with the Schoenberg) - the low Eb can only be taken with the RH, then up to the Ab with the LH lever and then attempt to slide the same finger to Db - totally impractical on my Buffet (and a Selmer) - but a stuffy Db can be made as xxo Ab/Eb|xxx.
Theoretically not a problem on German basses where the thumb has the low Eb, then RH Ab and LH Db, providing the low Eb is linked to close the low E as well.
But I haven't had the experience of playing a German system bass - so I would like to hear form those that have.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2005-10-07 15:57)
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-10-07 14:14
TKS, Larry, I guess its an example of "to each his own ?opinion?". I was beginning to feel I was "out in the wild blue", but have always been fascinated by keying-innovation, much of it seeing little use, so am glad to hear of a symp. use, mine was in jazz, much like the 1 and 1 fingering for "In the Mood" [also another fork]. Regards, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2005-10-07 16:17
It's "Stibal", by the way, not "Stribal"...
The one and one Bb in "In The Mood" is the way that I take it as well (not wanting to sprain my fingers when playing the famous "jump" passages), but I've been told by any number of "real" sax players that you shouldn't use the long Bb. I've experimented with it both ways with a whole section playing at once, and have found that what little was gained in intonation was more than made up for by increased sloppiness in how the parts were played. So, I tell my guys to play it with the long fingering and leave it at that.
(Another way in which we differ is that I never use the "bis" key. Even on the baritone, my fingers are just too large to safely activate it with enough clearance to ensure no "flubbing". On the alto, there is simply not enough space to trigger same for me.)
Regarding the Leblanc horns, bear in mind that I never owned any of those that I used (having a long-standing aversion to the other aspects of the Leblanc horns as well (their style of register key, the "feel" of the mechanism, and so on)). Virtually all of my playing time over the years (say 90%) has been on Selmer pro basses, five different ones during that time period.
Much like the fork on the Conn saxes, the Leblanc system worked, but (in my opinion, based on approximately twenty or so basses of both systems that I've used over the years) not as well as the standard "side" Eb lever.
My technical assumed that I wanted the forked Eb mechanism "locked out" when he rebuilt my Conn alto. No way to do that with a Leblanc bass though.
One thing that can be said for the boys up in Kenosha - they have never been afraid to try new things. The "Buck Rogers" saxophone (which I have seen but not played) is one example, the jump trill keys are another, and the fork Eb is a third. However, the patent on the fork is expired long time passing. The fact that no one else uses it at this time is a good sign that it may not be the bass clarinet equivalent of the screw ligature.
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-10-07 16:23
I use all the three Bb fingerings on sax depending on the circumstances, but probably use the front 'Bis key' Bb as my main Bb.
If I do play tenor (which I don't do much of as I'm usually on bari) and 'In The Mood' crops up, I too use the long Bb as this makes the Bb Major arpeggio a doddle, keeping RH index finger down throughout (xoo|xoo, xxx|xxx, xxx|xoo, xoo|xoo). But on alto or bari which I'm used to it's an F Major arpeggio - I play the intro in the upper register on bari, so I use the front F (xxx|xoo, xxo|ooo, oxo|ooo, Fxo|ooo) and the front E (Fxx|ooo) as well.
If I'm reading off a trombone part that goes to high concert Bb (which is altissimo G on bari), then I play this xoo|o HighF# o - and this is a very safe and secure High G on tenor as well, provided it's fitted with a high F# key.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2005-10-07 16:37)
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