 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-09-26 22:58
We have some really great reed brands out there currently. Sure we don't have the Morre any longer, nor the 1 type of Vandoren Reed so that all of their cane good, great and poor are in the box.
But today we have reeds such as the Gonzalez, Grand Concert Thick, Evolution, Rue 26 Vandoren, etc - many reeds of really great quality and pretty consistent too.
So would you rather have the reeds of today, or the reeds of say 30 years ago?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: GBK
Date: 2005-09-27 00:05
Sure, there are MANY more brands and varieties of reeds than there were 30+ years ago. But are we paying a price in quality by having too many types under each manufacturer's label? Just like in the 60's when the R13 was THE primary professional clarinet from Buffet (and many still say that was the "golden age" of clarinets) clarinetists often remark that the quality has declined as the number of different models from each manufacturer have increased. Stop and think about how many models of Buffet clarinets (or Leblanc, or Selmer, etc...) we no longer see today.
Too much diversification with no takers.
Has the basic product of reeds also been "specialized" too much? We now have thick blank, thin blank, regular cut, French filed cut, wide blank, narrow blank, tapered blank, grading in 1/4 sizes, grading in sub-strengths within a size, hand selected reeds, jazz reeds, etc...
In the case of older brands of reeds -
The Morré reeds of the '60's and early '70's were legendary.
I used Morré reeds exclusively until their cane and quality declined severely in the early '70's. Sure, not all were great (some were like tissue paper and some were like trees), but many played perfectly, with little or no adjustment right out of the box. A great Morré reed had a beautiful color palette, a distinct ring, and projection like nothing else available.
For other players, Olivieri reeds were the reed of choice. The "tempered" and "untempered" varieties had their followers (although I never quite understood or could tell the difference between the two). Sadly, the quality of Olivieri reeds declined quicker than the 1987 stock market crash, as their cane changed to being brittle, roughly cut and prone to chirps and squeeks. Their crude packaging did not protect the reeds well, either. The newest reincarnation of Olivieri reeds gets little mention by anyone, thus I assume very few players are using them.
I used Vandoren reeds from the 1970's to the 1990's. Many feel that Vandoren reeds have also gone through a few up and down periods, ranging from great to unplayable. However, legions of players will say that a great Vandoren reed is often worth sorting through many to get that one "gem". Clarinetists, for decades have sworn by them, but have also sworn at them, often complaining that the cane was not sufficiently aged and of poor quality. Yet they all seem to have a steadfast and undying loyalty to Vandoren.
An interesting aside was the short lived experiment by Vandoren a few years ago to a flatter tip profile. This was met with mass resistance by clarinetists. Vandoren, fearing a steep decline in sales, soon got the message - switching back to the more rounded tip which we now see.
Today, as in past generations, clarinetists want reeds made of the highest quality cane which has been aged properly, graded consistantly and cut accurately. For me personally, I find that Gonzalez FOF reeds are the closest to the sound and feeling of the older Morré reeds which I remember well...GBK
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: msloss
Date: 2005-09-27 02:38
Maybe the question should be "Clarinetists today -- better or worse than yesteryear"?
The guys who have been doing it across that span of time seem to be doing just fine with what is available today. S. Drucker still has his mojo, A. Gigliotti (whose fine hand was present in the V12 design) did well with the "new stock", etc. ad nauseum.
One thing for certain -- it seems as a group like clarinetists are spending more time blaming the gear than improving themselves. There is an ASTONISHING array of high quality instruments, accessories, reeds, etc. to suit any desire and playing style. So no, I don't think the reeds today are worse on the whole. Lord knows they don't seem to be an impediment to some pretty remarkable players. What I would take though is today's reeds at 1970's prices.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Katrina
Date: 2005-09-27 03:53
Hmmmm GBK I thought the Morres I had from 84-88 or so were pretty phenomenal. I would probably lose my mind completely with bliss if I tried one of the older ones, eh?
Thanks for the info on Gigliotti & V12's, Mark...I had no idea (although I probably should have known) that he was connected! I do like V12's but am too lazy to deal with cane in Minnesota. Too many humidity changes for me!
Oh, and do you mean actual 70's prices, or those adjusted for inflation?
Katrina
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: GBK
Date: 2005-09-27 04:27
Katrina wrote:
> Hmmmm GBK I thought the Morres I had from 84-88 or so were
> pretty phenomenal. I would probably lose my mind completely
> with bliss if I tried one of the older ones, eh?
Morré reeds went defunct in about the mid 1980's, so the ones you had were at the very end of the cycle. I tried many of those (Marks Music still has some of this stock for sale), but they were nothing compared to the ones from the 60's and 70's.
Not coincidentally the V12 reed (Vandoren's first thick blank reed) were first introduced about a year after the Morré reeds stopped being made...GBK
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-09-27 04:59
Gigliotti's hand was present, but so were many other Clarinetists.
It's very hard to find Tony's name mentioned at all in Vandorens archives.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: FrankM
Date: 2005-09-27 17:42
I've met very few people who don't fondly remember the "good old days"......."They don't make reeds ( or clarinets or saxes or bamboo fly rods or fine shotguns or violins or cars) like they used to "
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Steve B.
Date: 2005-09-28 13:41
Well I remember the good old days, and I actually think that Vandoren's
quality control has gotten better. Who remembers the Vandoren reeds in the purple plastic boxes. They were marked (2 1/2~ 3), (3 1/2 ~4) etc...
I'm sure Vandoren can control reed thickness better today with modern CNC gouging machines than they could 30 years ago.
True, today's cane is not cured long enough but I would imagine this has alot to do with production volumes which must be significantly higher now than it was in the '70s.
For anyone interested in the history of clarinet reeds and Gigliotti's input into the development of the V12, I highly recommend they read Shannon Thompson's excellent DMA dissertation entitled "A History and Analysis of the Philadelphia School of Clarinet Playing". This paper can be purchased online at:
http://www3.wcu.edu/~thompson/phil.htm
Steve
Post Edited (2005-09-28 13:57)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Alseg
Date: 2005-09-28 14:19
I read that paper. One thing that crops up is that the emphasis was orchestral and situated in a theatre that required projection. Hence the switch to Kaspars and the hard reeds along the way.
It seems to me that today's emphasis is on a more subtle style and tonal richness rather than projection.
As far as reeds go.....In comparison to those of the 1960s, I think that they are more balanced at the tip. I remember picking out reeds by holding them up to the light and noting a drastic difference in opacity from one side of the tip to the other. Jos. Gigliotti (AMGs dad) had a black onyx or glass block and reed rush on his desk, and would dessimate one side of these reeds to balance them. Compare this to the minimal corrections now needed with ATG or rush or paper or knife that are employed today.
The CNC devices and digital micrometers etc HAVE made and impact.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: jim S.
Date: 2005-09-28 14:58
I couldn't find the dissertation at the Texas website or at the very unresponsive and user unfriendly Michigan link.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Steve B.
Date: 2005-09-28 15:47
You're right, it's very difficult to find. Try this link:
http://wwwlib.umi.com/dxweb/search
and enter 9838184 in the Order No. field
It you're interested in reading interviews with Gigliotti, Portnoy and especially great information about Bonade, it is well worth the $38 duplication fee.
Steve
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-09-28 16:26
I did the link and tried to order but get an error each time at checkout.
Will have to contact them to get it fixed.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-09-28 16:40
My gut feeling is that, in general, today's reeds are cut much more consistently, and finished more smoothly, than reeds were in the past --- but reeds in the past generally were made of better-quality cane or (more likely) aged longer prior to being put on the market.
It's really hard to tell because (a) our recollections of older reeds tend to be colored by nostalgia, and (b) any older reeds being used today are, by definition, well-aged and will therefore tend to play better than a fresh 'green' box of newer reeds, cut notwithstanding.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-09-28 18:22
There was a bad spell in reeds around 1988-1990 - several makes of clarinet reeds were still green in the box, and large reeds (especially Rico Royal bari sax reeds) didn't last - they would only work once and were useless the next time, even careful storage didn't stop them growing mould.
I bought four boxes when I bought my bari, and none of them were any good, so I ended up resorting to Plasticovers!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: nickma
Date: 2005-09-28 20:56
I think Gonzalez FOF are really brilliant. I've never played a better reed.
Nick
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: GBK
Date: 2005-09-28 21:24
Shannon Thompson's dissertation is a MUST for anyone interested in all the different aspects of the so-called "Philadelphia School of Clarinet Playing".
Lots of information on Bonade, McGinnis, Portnoy, McLane, Gigliotti and most of the other prominent clarinetists from the 1920's to 1970's.
What I found most interesting was the in-depth information on mouthpieces, reeds and specific clarinets that were used by the different players.
One quote concerning Gigliotti and his frustration with the older (traditional) Vandoren reeds:
"...Because the Vandoren company began losing its American market to do-it-yourselfers and other complanies which offered reeds with thicker bases such as Morré or Olivieri, the company began to work with American clarinetists to design a reed which could gain wider acceptance in the United States. Gigliotti says that this began as a result of his complaint to Vandoren that he could only find 200 acceptable reeds out of 1500. He insisted something be done about this..."
It continues ... explaining his (and Lee Gibson's) involvement with the V12 design ...GBK
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Roger Aldridge
Date: 2005-09-29 14:00
Sadly, I've never had a chance to try a Morre reed. Could someone who has used them go into more detail about describing the reed? I'm especially curious about how close the reed profile and tonal qualities of a V12, FOF, or Alexander Classique reed are to a Morre.
Thanks, Roger
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: allencole
Date: 2005-09-29 16:15
I can't find it now, but someone asked whether clarinetists were better then than now. Interesting thought. Years ago, our embouchures were probably more youthful and our ears less discriminating. That has a way of doing a 180 as time passes.
I once asked an elderly mechanic if they made cars like they used to. And he said 'absolutely not'. In the 1950's you'd be doing valve jobs and ring jobs on those engines after 60,000 miles. Todays cars still feel and look new at twice that mileage.
I do agree with the consensus that the cane itself my not be what it used to be. How can it? I grew up when Rico was the standard school band reed, and Vandorens, Olivieri's, etc. were something special. Now, Vandorens are becoming standard for school children as their band directors turn to premium reeds to make up for poor embouchures. NO WONDER we find so few working in a box. I'm surprised they're not green.
Personally, I have been pretty happy with Zondas. Most are at least usable, and very consistent in strength. Any improvements in aging, durability, etc. will be appreciated, but I'm having a better time with them than I ever did with Vandorens and Mitchell Luries.
Another factor may be that the variety and evolution in reed and mouthpiece designs may be making certain combinations supercritical. The science of mouthpiece making has exploded, and perhaps it is critical that certain designs of mouthpieces are at their optimum with certain designs of reeds. The most free blowing instruments and mouthpieces in history may well be the ones made today.
I tend to think that in the past, we wrestled more with our equipment and made ourselves more adaptable. Today, I hear even mediocre high school kids blasting some great-sounding tone from custom mouthpieces, but not really able to control it. What we consider normal response in our setups, some of these guys may view as stuffiness--causing them to descend into mouthpiece/reed mania that would be better addressed by practicing long tones.
Allen Cole
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
