 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: LauraUK
Date: 2005-09-28 13:56
Hi,
This is my first time on the board, there is so much information here! I have been researching the archives, but can't find exactly what i'm looking for, so I wonder if all you experienced teachers out there who could give me some advice please?
My situation is this: i am 24, and have been teaching for about 5 years, I have students of all levels, and recently entered my first Grade 8 pupil (she passed with merit :-). I have only been teaching her for 6 months, and because we were working for the exam didn't want to change her technique too much. However, her tonguing action is very heavy and each time she tongues you can hear a kind of "clunk" noise (not a good description, but i hope you know what i mean!).
I think her embouchure's ok, her sound is good, and she is a musical player, and as she now is thinking about studying music at university, i really want to address this tonguing issue soon.
Does anyone have any ideas?! My pupils who I have taught from the beginning don't make this sound, and I have tried everything i know!
Many thanks,
Laura
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-09-28 15:28
Is she making a sound in her throat when she tongues - in other words, does she only push the air at the same time she tongues?
I think it's best to explain that it's only the tongue that should be moving - there should be no movement in the jaw or lips as the tongue acts, and the air pressure should be constant and up to pressure - the tongue acting as a kind of valve keeping the reed dampened while the air is still flowing, then releasing to let the reed vibrate.
Get her to play tongued repeated notes or even staccato notes to see exactly what she's doing.
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Author: ZCClarinet
Date: 2005-09-28 15:41
Make sure she is not anchor tonguing. I used to, and produced a sound similar to what you are describing. Ask her to be very aware of the tip of her tongue, if it is touching the back of either the top or bottom set of teeth. If she is, then correct that and you can work from there.
I always liked the idea of the tongue "bouncing" off the air when you are playing. It should not be a stop, and then a start of sound, but simply a single point in time where the sound is replaced by silence (but the air pressure is not stopped).
...But that's just how I think about it.
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Author: TonkaToy
Date: 2005-09-28 15:48
What he said.
"the air pressure should be constant and up to pressure - the tongue acting as a kind of valve keeping the reed dampened while the air is still flowing, then releasing to let the reed vibrate."
My first teacher was a Bonade student and this approach to tonguing was a fundamental part of his pedagogy. The tongue only temporarily inhibits the flow of air. The breath continues while the tongue in on the reed. My teacher used, and I use today with my students, an exercise he called "stop tonguing". Take a Cmajor scale for instance. Start the first note, then dampen the reed with your tongue, continue to blow, and move the fingers to the "D" position. Continue up the scale in a similar fashion: blow, dampen, move fingers, release tongue on new note, dampen and repeat. At first you get some really ugly noises and funny sounding tonguing. After a while however the student will catch on to the relationship between supported breathing, and the tongue interrupting the flow of air. The will also begin to find the "sweet spot" for the tongue on the reed and will have a fantastic short staccato. Then you can begin to talk about other strokes the tongue uses to create different types of articulation.
Hope this helped. It's always difficult to try to put into words. As someone once said, "writing about music is like dancing about architecture".
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2005-09-28 15:51
Laura -
For increasing tonguing speed and lightening the stroke, see http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=158047&t=157973
For switching from anchor tonguing (the tip of the tongue tucked down against the lower teeth) to tip-to-tip tonguing, see http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=6899&t=6887
Keep us posted on how your student progresses.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2005-09-28 16:07
Before we start the metaphysical part of this matter I (as usual when this comes up) want to remind about what Frederick Thurston had to say. Simple and very correct:
...."Now try to find out which part of the tongue will contact the tip of the reed most easily. While the tongue lies relaxed in the mouth its tip can be felt just behind the bottom teeth. When you put the mouthpiece into your mouth the tongue must merely be but slightly forward and upward to make contact with the reed.
You will probably feel the reed (and perhaps the tip of the mouthpiece) 'cutting' across your tongue about 1/4 to 1/2 inch away from its tip. I consider this the normal position for most players"...
Alphie
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2005-09-28 16:13
Chris P and TonkaToy, you are both saying that the air should still be "flowing" even though the tongue is stopping the reed from vibrating.
I have heard this advice before, and I have never understood it.
The air is "flowing", but there is no sound. Where is the air flowing to? Is it flowing into the instrument? Is it flowing out of the sides of the mouth?
Or are you really saying that the player maintains the air pressure, but no air actually moves until the reed is allowed to vibrate?
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If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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Author: TonkaToy
Date: 2005-09-28 16:27
The air is "flowing", but there is no sound. Where is the air flowing to? Is it flowing into the instrument? Is it flowing out of the sides of the mouth?
No. There is a build-up of pressure until the tongue is removed from the reed. It is essentially like an air hose that is stopped. The exercise, as I understood it, is two fold. One, to help with proper tongue placement, and two, to get the student to understand that the tongue is only a temporary interruption of the air flow. Too many young students get into a bad habit of making distinct breaths for each tongued note. This reinforces the idea that air must continue to flow at all times.
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2005-09-28 16:42
So you are saying that there is a build-up of pressure, but the flow of air stops. Stops temporarily, perhaps, but stops all the same.
I'm interested in understanding this exactly, not just to improve my clarinet playing, but because I'm also a (beginning) brass player, and these issues come up in my brass lessons. With a brass instrument, there's this same concept of continuous airflow, but there's absolutely no question of stopping the sound with your tongue. To stop the sound, you stop blowing, and yet you maintain the mental model that the airflow is continuous.
I think that's it. I think it's almost the same on both instrument families. And yet it isn't exactly the same. I'd be interested in the views of any other hybrid woodwind/brass players out there.
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If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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Author: msloss
Date: 2005-09-28 17:12
David Hattner is actually working on a podcast of this very subject that he is going to make available in the not too distant future. Anyone who is interested can email me and I'll pass along your contact info to him. I'm sure he'd be willing to email an advance copy of the MP3 before it goes up on the web.
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Author: wrowand
Date: 2005-09-28 18:10
I'm an oboe player and I used to arch my tongue and simultaneously touch the reed and the roof of my mouth. I wasn't even aware that there was something wrong with my technique until a good teacher noticed a slight bump in the sound when I was tonguing legato passages. Ask your student if she feels her tongue touching the roof of her mouth when she tongues.
The solution is to relearn to tongue the correct way, it takes considerable time (months) but it's best to get this fixed as soon as possible.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-09-28 18:18
David, think of a high pressure air line with a release valve at the end (like the kind you fill your car tyres with) - that's essentially what we are doing, the air in the hose is already at pressure and the valve at the end releases the air so there's no delay in the air reaching the valve.
If there was no air in the hose the pressure on the other side of the valve (the car tyre's own pressure in this case) will reduce and escape back into the hose before the compressor forces air back the other way, into the tyre. And the valve is not as effective unless there's pressure behind it.
In playing terms that will mean the same as blowing on every single tongued note, so the air pressure is low to start with and then rapidly builds up under diaphragm pressure causing a delay in the sound.
You're using your mouth the same way as the top of the hosepipe while your tongue is dampening the reed (just like the valve), and releasing your tongue will set the reed in vibration - you're already 'primed' so there's no gap between the air in your lungs (like the compressor, the air in them is under diaphragm pressure) and the clarinet, which is like the tyre.
Hmmm... I hope you can see this from my point of view.
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Author: Tyler
Date: 2005-09-28 21:50
I didn't read the rest of the posts before I wrote this, but this is what I would tell her:
Play super-slow articulated scales, making the separation between notes so light and legato that the scale could be mistaken for a slurred scale. Then gradually increase the amount of time the tongue is on the reed between notes, and when the slow staccato is very even, THEN start building speed (fast tonguing only comes with fast airspeed).
Hmm, now that I wrote that out, I need to work on that again! lol
Hope this has been helpful.
-Tyler
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Author: GoatTnder
Date: 2005-09-29 01:04
My favorite example of the air-flowing-while-tonguing is sprinklers. Imagine the sprinklers with the head that hits the flow of water and turns it just slightly. The water never stops coming out of the hose, but for that breif instant the head interrupts the flow. And in that breif instant, a gap in the water is made. Thus is it for tonguing. The air, like the water in the hose, never stops moving. But, the tongue can still interrupt the sound. Hope this helps.
Andres Cabrera
South Bay Wind Ensemble
www.SouthBayWinds.com
sbwe@sbmusic.org
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Author: gmofclarinet
Date: 2005-09-29 12:55
I would suggest to have her tongue as if she is saying "dee" when you say Dee you are pointing your tongue and that is what you need to do to get a clean sound...
--Mindy
www.lochwoodacademy.com
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Author: Ah Clem
Date: 2005-09-30 23:40
I have been experimenting with this slightly. I know that I am going to have to devote a lot of time to it quickly (I am pressing on "Crossing the Break" at the moment).
I have the very tip of my tongue, pointed up, under the very tip of the reed. The tingling from the reed vibration on the tip of the tongue is, to put if mildly, annoying.
Am I postioning my tongue, relative to the reed, and the end of the mouthpiece correctly?
Thank you.
Ah Clem
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2005-10-01 01:06
Clem,
the tip of your tongue should be down. Against the floor of your mouth. The back of the tongue should be raised, so you're creating a "hill" that goes down from the back of the tongue to the tip of the tongue. (Many people say that when you imitate a cat's hissing noise, or the syllable "ee" as in "sheeeeeeep" this is the position your tongue should be in).
When you go to tongue a note, think "la" instead of "ta". Connect the tip of your tongue with the tip of the reed (you only need to stop the vibration of the reed, not STRIKE it), then let go when you're ready for the next note to begin. So if you have a passage where you're playing on beats one and three and resting on beats two and four, there's no reason to stop the airstream. Let the note sound, then stop the vibration for the rest on beat two. Then "release" the reed for beat three, then lightly stop the vibration for beat four.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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