 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-09-25 14:21
I just had an R13 (432xxx - from 1997) booked in for repair as 'it was dropped and the low E doesn't play very well'.
I had a call from the owner and asked what the service history is, and lo and behold, it's never seen a repairer or even a screwdriver since the day it was bought.
The top joint leaks like a sieve, the majority of pads are scuffed, split or falling out (as are the screws) - the owner didn't understand that these are things that wear out and wondered 'how can that happen?'.
And as far as being dropped, I think that matter is the least of their worries as no keys are bent or pillars misaligned, and definitely no signs of bruising.
Mentioning to the owner that the pads are in a bad way, they replied 'but it's not that old' - yeah, it's not that old in comparison to my own instruments, but still, an eight year old instrument that has never been serviced or maintained in all that time will obviously be worse for wear, and skin pads certainly won't last for eight years without showing any signs of deteriation.
The tenon corks are all shrunken as well, and the owner mentioned they normally leave the clarinet assembled on a stand for days, instead of where it should be kept between use - in it's case.
A service on this clarinet is out of the question as all the tenon corks, synthetic key corks and pads need replacing, and the price of a service won't even cover half of that - the three tenon corks alone are more than half the cost of a service, add all the pads and replacement springs and the figure is nearer the cost of a full overhaul which is what needs doing.
When I mentioned my full overhaul price (which is perfectly reasonable) they said 'I might as well buy a new one' - not really as that would only be a similar price as a plastic student instrument, this one is an R13 and spending that amount on it is perfectly justified, and I've never had any complaints before about how much I charge. And then the owner said 'Oh, I'll have to try and find the money to pay for that' - in the eight years this clarinet hasn't been serviced, I don't see how this can be unreasonable considering they've pretty much saved themselves around £1000 in service costs in not having any work done in all that time, only now does a fraction of that cost seem to rattle them for a complete overhaul! Not to mention they are also well off financially and can easily afford the cost of an overhaul!
With any mechanical device whether it be a clarinet or a car, it's normally expected to do some yearly maintainance to keep everything in working and reliable order - I always suggest a service every year on any instrument that has regular use.
I bet they have their car(s) serviced every year like most people, so why should a clarinet be any different?
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2005-09-25 14:28
But they're well-off... So of course they can buy a new one, right?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-09-25 14:50
Yeah, and then eight years down the line they wonder that one packs up as well!
Clarinets aren't white goods, just a shame some people don't realise that.
Oh, it's shedding pads right now as I'm typing this!
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-09-25 15:36
Between £300-£350 (GB£) for a full overhaul - and that's with cork pads down to RH cross B/F# and leather pads for the bottom four, and tidying up toneholes etc.
And a service is £100 - which includes replacing up to 5 pads, replacing tenon corks @ £20 each joint.
To put that into perspective, the RRP of a Buffet R13 in the UK is £1862.00, and B12s can be bought for £350.00.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2005-09-25 15:43)
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Author: joannew
Date: 2005-09-25 16:17
I must admit I'm somewhat of a guilty party - I take very good care to clean and put away my R13 after every use, and have had the occasional minor service - one or two pads replaced, key action tweaked, etc, but I have just recently had my first full overhaul & repad, after about 17 years playing on the original skin & cork pads.
Expecting to pick up a clarinet looking & feeling like new, I was actually somewhat disappointed in the work. I haven't been able to get the rings keys adjusted to a comfortable feel, even with 2 return trips to the workshop. I feel like I need to squeeze the keys to close properly, and the rings sit too high over the chimneys, at least for my fingers.
According to the tech, there are two problems: new pads have more give than old & dry pads, so the action is more spongy, and nickel keys have a very strong memory, and are therefore difficult to adjust, quickly returning to their original form. Can experienced repair techs confirm this? Is it just because I got so used to the feel of the old pads? And is the usual means of adjusting the ring height by using a rubber mallet? I have noticed some kind of stress fracture in the nickel plating on the arms of one of the ring keys, and wonder if the tech is too heavy-handed, so I'm a bit reluctant to keep going back to watch him hammer my precious R13 into submission!
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-09-25 16:40
But at least you have done some maintainance in that time.
Ring keys can be bent around to lie at an even level with the chimneys to the height you want - whether that be flush or proud depending how fat or thin your fingers are (as long as they've been mounted well), and a uniform height at that so there's ideally equal distance between the top of the chimney and the rings, not too low or high in places in relation to the chimneys, and also concentric with them when closed (again, this too depends on how well they've been mounted) - but I'd never use a mallet to do that!
I use cork pads which have little or no give, but skin pads will only be spongy if they're not seated well - even more so if they're too thick and are heavy at the back (the cup arm side, nearest the hinge) and light at the front.
Buffet clarinets do have a thin set (where the top of the bedplace and bottom of the pad cups are perfectly level when viewed - so that an equal amount of the pad sidewall shows all round, not more at the front and less at the back), and the pads ARE thinner than most, even now, so most replacement skin pads are generally much thicker and the set has to be adjusted to fit thicker pads, which is why I use cork and leather pads as cork pads can be made to any thickness, and leather pads fit the inside diameter of the cups rather than the shoulder pads (in skin or Goretex) which have about the same outer diameter as the cups.
Nickel plating will crack if keys are bent, especially if applied thick.
Now you can see why I don't trust repairers when they've butchered my instruments, and I'd rather do the job myself.
I've built up a good reputation among many players and I do like maintain a high standard of work, I know for a fact I wouldn't like to see any of my own instruments come back to me having only half the job done with no care taken, and it's a sad thing to say I know many repairers that do just that.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2005-09-25 17:54)
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2005-09-25 17:00
If a tech told me what yours is telling you, I think I would be looking for a new tech. New pads may have more give in them than old but I've never noticed, after replacing pads that there is a significantly marked difference in feel. (Maybe I'm too insensitive. On the other hand, I've never waited for the pads to be as hard as rocks before I replaced them. When you've had pads replaced in the past, have the new ones felt "spongy"? I suspect not.)
The statement "nickle keys have a very strong memory" is causing perturbations in my "bullsh*t" detector clear across the pond. Adjusting ring heights is usually accomplished by changing the thickness of the corks on the upper and lower parts of the bridge mechanism or the connection between the thumb ring and the first finger ring on the upper joint. It sounds to me like the repair tech may have used pads that were too thick for your instrument on at least some of your keys (supported by his "spongy pad" comment, as well). If that is the case and he is trying to compensate by bending/hammering your keys, I would say that I think his clarinet repair skills are limited.
Perhaps Gordon or David S. one of the other repair techs on the list can correct me on this if I'm wrong, however.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: joannew
Date: 2005-09-25 17:28
Thanks for the feedback. I was actually really distressed when I first picked up the instrument - the cork pads he used on the side trill keys and C#/G# key were literally twice the thickness of the ones he removed! I had him change the lower ones because they really muffled the sound, but the two upper ones I can't say I really notice a difference, so I didn't complain. He used a combination of skin and leather pads on the lower joint, I'm not sure why and didn't notice at the time so didn't ask. There were also problems with noisy keywork in the little finger keys - some connections he had repaired but others came back worse, like the LH F/C key touching the body of the instrument when depressed, and the arm of the crowsfoot scraping against the key. Those got fixed the second time, but I can't imagine that anything but carelessness and heavy handling would have caused things like that. Then there was the adjustable thumbrest I had installed, which was put in the wrong position, necessitating yet another set of holes drilled into the wood...
I thought going to a shop in Paris selling exclusively Buffet clarinets would ensure me a qualified repairman for the job, but apparently not! But what can be done? I don't want him to touch it again, but am considering talking to the proprietor to try get at least a partial refund, so I can take it somewhere else for more careful finishing touches.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-09-25 17:41
Chris - Here in the colonies, we used to have a [TV?] saying , "People are a sorry lot !!". By whom?, Help. I check out and tweak even my un-played goodies about every 6 months. Works well, need little skilled help. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-09-25 17:48
You should take a mallet to him to show him how it feels! If they are meant to be a Buffet specialist, they should by rights have the correct pads as used by Buffet, and not crowbar ill-fitting pads in there instead.
I usually allow no less than 2mm venting on most of the top joint keys (and probably up to 2.5 on the side Bb and F# keys and 2mm max. for the trills), and around 2.5 minimum on both the ring keys on the top joint depending on how much the bottom joint rings allow - usually nearer 3mm venting on the bottom joint (both rings and cross F#), and definitely a minimum of 3mm venting on the lowest pad so there's no stuffiness in the low register.
It's as a result of a bad experience having one of my clarinets badly repaired that prompted me to do repairs myself.
I know I have a responsibility and take pride when working on any instrument that it should work perfectly for the owner, and offer a year guarantee on my work when they receive it so that if they want anything adjusted in that time I'll do that for them with no extra charge.
But I won't take responsibility if another repairer has altered anything during that time, or any damage due to an accident or carelessness of the owner.
And as for my less played instruments, I too check them regularly and do the necessary to make sure everything is fine when I do need to play them.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2005-09-25 17:56)
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Author: ron b
Date: 2005-09-26 07:26
Here in central California, USA, the price (*my price*) for a "play condition" - pad(s), up to about eight, and cork only as needed to make it play, can run from $5.00 (minimum) to 20/30 dollars (USdollars).
-- Above that, a re-pad is more economical because pads at $1.75 ea. runs the bill up pretty fast - with a re-pad there's cleaning and oiling and more tweaking and adjusting - at $85.00.
-- A full, complete and thorough overhaul will run between $180.00 - $220.00, depending on the extent of swedging, bending, re-fitting and such that might be necessary.
My customers are usually agreeable when they are shown the difference between a good pad and a bad one, and/or cork that's disintegrating. It's obvious just by looking at it. Cracks and loose rings are also obvious and the extra charge is pretty self-explanatory. Show and Tell is very effective.
My prices may be on the low end but consider that my 'overhead' is almost negligible compared to the big outfits' rent of $3,000 or more a month. The important thing is reputation; ALL clarinets leave my bench in fine playing condition, whether a $5 service or a $200 complete run through. They're test-played by me, tried by the player, and adjusted to suit their individual touch. First week beginner or fourty-year veteran, makes no difference.
...and, the kind of car they arrive in has no bearing on what kind of attention the horn gets, whether it's a free estimate or "the works" 
If they don't like my prices they're free to try across town at "The Butcher Shop" -- nearly every town has one -- they'll be back.... this time, if not to me, to one of the other Reputable Repairers.
- r![[cool]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/cool.gif) n b -
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Author: donald
Date: 2005-09-26 11:30
jnk- with "height of rings" i think it was refering to the ring height when DOWN, which would not be affected by the corks but by the thickness of the pad. If the rings are below or too far above the tone hole chimneys (in "DOWN" position), then they can be adjusted by "bending" OR by installing a different thickness pad.
the height of the rings in relation to the tone hole chimney makes a difference to the feel of the instrument. If they are too low then the player has to "push harder" to close the pads controlled by rings (not reccomended- creates unwanted tension)..... if they are too high it increases the chances of subtle air leaks etc.
Another issue is that the finger closing a hole should not do so before the pad closes the hole- on a "micro level" this will happen if the rings too low. Likewise, the pad should not close a microseccond before the finger.... of course some players will not even notice details like that....
My exerpience has been that while some very fine players like the rings completely flush with the tone holes, the best repairers reccomend having them approx .5mm above for good reason (as i said, "in my experience")
keep playing the good tunes,
donald
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-09-26 12:29
With cork pads I do make sure the rings are slightly above the chimneys to make sure the pad is closed. I thin the pad down to the right thickness to achieve this. In fact, probably just slightly thinner so the shellac brings things up to the right height. But I do aim for a uniform gap and height where the rings are in relation to the chimneys. If the player has thin fingers I will make the rings slightly higher for them if that's what they want, and bend or alter other keys to fit their requirements.
As for my costs, I am (if anything) slightly undercharging to do the work I do as I will never use skin pads in an overhaul, and I'm pretty reluctant to using them in a service even though I do to maintain consistency throughout an instrument, I won't mix skin and leather on the same instrument - if skin pads are fitted I'll replace the worn ones with skin and the same applies to leather padded instruments - I'll put leather pads where needed and not skin, though I will generally put cork pads in side keys and other low-lying keys (in relation to the bore centre line) where needed, but on a full overhaul I'll cork pad everything except the bottom four, and fit cork pads down to the Ab/Eb key on Leblancs (or other makes as I see fit) as this tonehole is low-lying.
Most other repairers in the area do charge about half the amount I charge on a full overhaul, but I've seen their work and they only really do half the amount of work I do. I'd like to conduct an experiment where all the repairers in my area are given an instrument to fully overhaul (of the same make and model if possible) and an independent panel of judges should decide on the quality of the end result.
And I will be as bold as to say I do an excellent and thorough job and a much better job than most of the repairers in my area, I don't have any complaints, I offer advice and aftercare, and the customers do come back to me for any servicing rather than letting someone else do any work, and it's my responsibility to do the best job I can do, not only for my own reputation, but for customer satisfaction, and I have a lot of satisfied customers.
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Author: Brenda
Date: 2005-09-26 19:56
Through the years of preparing income taxes I find that those who are "well-off financially" are usually the ones to nit-pick the prices, and they usually don't donate at all to charities (there are, fortunately, a few grand exceptions). Maybe that's why they're well-off, their money is held very close.
There's no need to reduce your price, IMHO. If you're sure of your prices, explain what you believe it needs and you're professional about it, then if they don't like it they can go to another. Often you'll find these people coming back when they get less than satisfactory service elsewhere. In the end they could become very good customers once they find out what the competition offers. In the meantime this is a good place to sound off.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-09-26 22:05
You know what Brenda, I was thinking pretty much the same thing earlier - "those who are "well-off financially" are usually the ones to nit-pick the prices, ... Maybe that's why they're well-off, their money is held very close."
And yeah, I won't be lowering my cost as I have many customers who aren't exactly 'well-off' that do like and appreciate the work I do, and don't bat an eyelid at the mention of cost even though they do know there are other repairers around charging a lot less, but they don't trust them to do the work as they've experienced that the cheap way isn't always the best way. I've built up my reputation through the work I do, and through word of mouth as a result of that.
I'm only being honest in myself and in my work, and I tend to treat all people I meet in the same manner - from a dustman to a dutchess, I don't see why I should put on a different face for every person I meet as that's not being honest - and as far as my working practice goes I'll do just as good a job on a plastic student instrument as I'd do on a top pro model, I will maintain the same quality on every instrument I work on as I do take a lot of pride in my work, and if I do a poor job then that will only reflect badly on me, and I can't take that risk.
I used to work in a music retailers as a woodwind repairer (and reluctantly as a sales assistant as keyboards and electronics just go right over the top of my head, as well as filling out finance applications/credit agreements, etc. as I'm completely hopeless at maths, though I would spend a lot of time with the woodwind customers that showed genuine interest and enthusiasm), and it was generally the customers that were well-to-do that always wanted everything for next to nothing, would rather rent an instrument than buy an instrument and were the ones that had the least amount of respect and interest.
Anyway, enough ranting from me now, I've got an early start tomorrow morning.
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