 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Claire
Date: 2005-09-20 05:52
Well, this is a question that seems to pop up periodically in my career as a clarinet teacher. It's something that's been discussed in pedagogy classes and I'm going to ask this BBoard about it. That is the question of, "Is physically reinforcing a student's playing position acceptable and if so, how far is too far?" Obviously you absolutely DO NOT touch a students private parts or put a hand on their knee. That's completely wrong. What I'm referring to is more like the chin for embouchre position, the arms for releasing tension, etc. etc. I ask this primarily because of the response of a student lately who I asked if she had any germs so that I could try and diagnose a problem with tone. I wanted to decpher if it was a problem with the reed, the ligature or the mouthpiece. I'm usually ok if they say that they'd prefer if I didn't play on their setup because some would find it gross and whatever but this student seemed quite offended and it's been bugging me all night. I'd be interested in hearing any and all responses.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2005-09-20 08:32
Just so that I understand - you wanted to try with the student's mpc/reed, right?
IMHO there's nothing wrong with testing other people's mouthpieces; after all everyone says "go to the shop and try different brands before you settle on a certain make". So if it's possible in a shop environment it should be possible in a school environment too.
One clinically professional approach would be to say "le me test your mouthpiece", then get your mpc disinfectant, spray and then rinse the mpc/reed, test, spray and wash again and give it back. No need to mention germs and other possibly embarrassing details.
There's quite a number of suitable disinfectants out there. Get a "hospital" brand, not because it is better but because it looks better than a homebrewn solution with hydrogen peroxide or listerine...
I hope we're not approaching times where we shake hands only with surgical gloves...
--
Ben
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-09-20 12:57
I use an alcohol swab (like the doctor uses for shots) BD brand I prefer as they stay wet longer so if I need to reuse the swab during the lesson it still may be wet.
Clean the MP as well as the reed on both sides and play, clean again before giving it back.
I always ask the student if they have a cold as I want to check their equipment.
As for being physical at all, no - you never have to at all. You want to demonstrate their stomach being firm you can hit your own. Arm tension - same thing.
You can grab their barrel and shake it if you want to check that, but in todays "don't touch no matter what" attitude, you are better off not touching for any reason.
And yes, we are in the times of shaking hands with surgical gloves......
I used to stand on students stomachs to demonstrate proper breath control, but after I gained some weight a few died, so I stopped doing it ........... 
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2005-09-20 13:22
>>>>
You can grab their barrel and shake it if you want to check that, but in todays "don't touch no matter what" attitude, you are better off not touching for any reason.
<<<<
Must be a country thing - it isn't unnormal here, at least when the situation requires it and some physical contact is appropriate. But yes - tough time for teachers; one black sheep can spoil the didactic achievements of a whole generation. ![[frown]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie2.gif)
--
Ben
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2005-09-20 13:50
There isn't as much of a need for it these days, but earlier on my teacher got physical (that sounds really bad) but he ALWAYS asked. Not that I was offended anyway.
It was mainly my back (upper & lower), arms, chin, neck, head.
If a student is offended by this, it's their own loss, IMO.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-09-20 14:08
There is uptightness in parts of the USA which go as far as public school teachers being forbidden to give a private lesson.
Has to be a group setting only to prevent abuse.
Sad state of society............ ( I don't teach in a public school setting, but a friend of mine does for the city of Philadelphia and that's what their policy is and they are to strictly abide by it).
-------------------------
"If a student is offended by this, it's their own loss, IMO."
-------------------------
unfortunately over here, it could you your own loss...........
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Author: Brenda
Date: 2005-09-20 14:09
Abe Galper wanted to check out my mouthpiece / reed combination and intonation of the open G so just reached out and took my clarinet and played it. It was handed back with his comments about what he had observed. No mention was made of germs, etc. I was stunned, but thought that this elderly man had more to lose than I did. Sure enough, he's gone but I'm alive and well. Well OK, it was awhile later that he passed away. But others told me that he regularly took the students' instruments that way - must be why he lasted so long, he regularly got his immunizations.
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Author: OpusII
Date: 2005-09-20 14:49
All my clarinet teachers took my clarinet and played on it several times... didn't bother me then and still doesn't bother me... I've tested many instruments myself also from other students, but with permission.. I think it's more common in our country.
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Author: ron b
Date: 2005-09-20 16:26
I am quite opinionated about this subject, Claire, so please bear with me while I toss in two cents worth...
Given the transitory nature of one's job as a [music] teacher, if they're any good at it, is giving something, knowledge and skill, to someone so that they may assimilate and make it their own. A teacher needn't touch anything that isn't theirs or use hand gestures to do that. Simply convey what your student needs to know. The teacher's occasional 'show-n-tell' can be done on personal equipment. Anything beyond that, especially during lesson time, is inappropriate.
The teacher is the giver, not the taker. Never, ever, symbolically or otherwise take anything From a student. A teacher gives, among other things, analysis, testing, correction, reward, praise, encouragement, a few laughs and satisfaction. Let me repeat: teachers don't Take, they Give.
Playing duets and/or participating in a music group together is all the musical demonstration a teacher need do. The sole purpose is to get the student to get it. The payoff, the satisfaction, the reward if you will, is when the students in turn pass it along through their own personal [musical] experience(s), as they in turn become Givers 
- ron b -
Post Edited (2005-09-20 16:38)
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Author: BobD
Date: 2005-09-20 17:00
Maybe you asked the wrong question. We all have germs.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2005-09-20 18:20
I think Brenda's story about Abe Galper captures what is important about all of this.
Abe wanted to know -- as I very often want to know -- what setup the student is using to produce what they are producing.
This is neither 'taking' nor 'giving'.
People are more or less fastidious about such things, so obviously you need to ask permission before playing a student's clarinet. (I'm not too worried about myself, beyond hating playing the clarinet of a smoker. I think it's pretty well accepted that 'germs' don't figure very large in the dangers -- imagine asking your partner whether they 'had germs' before kissing them...) I also sometimes ask a student to play on my own instrument.
A few years back, we had a big discussion about 'personal contact' on the Klarinet list. My own take is that we need to stand out against the 'culture of blame' by refusing to kowtow to prohibitive injunctions when it's clear that there is no problem.
However, that doesn't mean that there aren't some sorts of students that I would steer well clear of in this regard.
Tony
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-09-20 18:28
" I think it's pretty well accepted that 'germs' don't figure very large in
the dangers -- imagine asking your partner whether they 'had germs' before
kissing them...) I also sometimes ask a student to play on my own
instrument."
---------------------------------------------
There are diseases which ARE spread by playing anothers mouthpiece/reed.
Gingivitis is one of them.
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2005-09-20 19:05
DavidBlumberg wrote: >> There are diseases which ARE spread by playing anothers mouthpiece/reed. Gingivitis is one of them.>>
...but they don't figure very large in the dangers.
Tony
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Author: ron b
Date: 2005-09-20 21:00
Live and learn, I guess... diseases used to be 100% dangerous to the persons they pounce upon.
- r b -
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2005-09-20 23:10
Yeah, well, that's like, well, like, a major insight, right?
You could, like, publish that, I guess.
Just, like, you could point out that it wasn't worthwhile crossing the road -- 'cause, well, if you got run over, like, you'd be dead, right? And quite a few guys -- oh, and gals -- get run over crossing the road, no?
And if you were, and it killed you, that would be 100%, man. No arguing with that.
Tony
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2005-09-20 23:17
Claire said . . .Quote:
I wanted to decpher if it was a problem with the reed, the ligature or the mouthpiece. I'm usually ok if they say that they'd prefer if I didn't play on their setup because some would find it gross and whatever but this student seemed quite offended and it's been bugging me all night. In my opinion, there's no reason to be bugged by it. You asked permission. The person seemed offended. Perhaps this student is simply more sensative than others. If you were to ask this question to any number of students, some of them are going to say "Sure", some of them are going to say, "I'd prefer you not", and some are going to be offended. You simply have a student of the latter group. IMO, you did nothing wrong by asking permission. The person simply denied you permission and reacted strongly to it.
I don't think you should let it bother you, I think that it's perfectly alright to ask permission for something of that nature in the future, and I would CERTAINLY just keep in the back of my mind not to ask THIS particular student that question in the future, and to keep in mind that this person might react stronger to actions like that. But hey, everybody's different and everyone reacts to things differently. That's all that happened.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-09-20 23:23
You can get oral herpes from playing somebody's mouthpiece if they have it and the sore is open (if I recall).
Is that "like enough" of a deterrent for ya Tony? Is that real enough of a disease since gingivitis isn't?
Since we make our living from using our teeth, I would consider gingivitis to be major enough.......
Post Edited (2005-09-20 23:23)
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2005-09-20 23:40
The damage that you do by scaring people about trying each other's setups is very large. That's because you can learn a great deal by comparing what you *think* people are playing on with what they are *actually* playing on.
Even if you gave me (I doubt whether you could give me) evidence that transmission of dangerous diseases had occurred by people trying each other's clarinets, I would still continue the practice, taking some precautions, if the incidence was small.
But, over to you for the evidence.
Tony
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Author: Aussiegirl
Date: 2005-09-20 23:41
Ive never had a problem with my teacher showing me whatever part on my neck face etc that i shouldnt be moving or whatever, and he did always ask, so its never been as issue. in regards to playing on a students setup, if its to distinguish whether there is a problem with them or with the equipment, and you have asked them whether they have a cold, i dont see why it would be a problem....
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2005-09-20 23:44
Now don't let us get paranoid...
If a teacher refuses to test a student's setup, okay. If a student refuses to have the horn tested, okay.
It's not forbidden to remain polite when saying no, though.
--
Ben
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Author: ron b
Date: 2005-09-20 23:47
Some kids, some adults as well, are not going to object to a "reasonable request" by an authority figure. Below the calm surface however, they'll resent you. As a teacher you need to be aware of that... and use common sense.
Some folks are also intimidated by innane meanderings by insensitive, full of themselves, dolts who by spewing diatribes try to appear intelligent. More's the pity.
- rb -
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-09-20 23:58
The simple act of using an alcohol swab on the reed/mp prevents a lot of germs from passing from player to player. I've yet to see a mouthpiece discolored by it (don't use rubbing alcohol on a cotton ball though!!)
Yes, I agree that trying equipment is quite important. I do it all the time.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-09-21 00:01
aw come on Ron, not sure if you were directing that dig at myself or Tony, but both of us have a good point.
This place is the best lesson you will ever get for free.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2005-09-21 00:09
I wonder why we can't seem to "agree to disagree". Dave B doesn't approve of trying other people's setups or having his tried. Others here, do. Either case is fine with me.
However I believe that while I try to minimize the risk of disease (by asking permission and asking if they have a disease or anything that can be contracted), I don't eliminate the risk as Dave B. chooses to do. So I see nothing wrong with him doing it his way, and me doing it my way. I think the benefits of seeing if it's a bad setup outweigh whatever risk I'll be taking. He doesn't.
But either way . . . life goes on . . . !!!
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: ron b
Date: 2005-09-21 00:18
Dig not directed at anyone specifically, David, it's just that some teachers are overbearing enough that, though the student might not like it, they'll allow a teacher to take a liberty that a sibling, or a parent in some cases, would never get away with. Remember, being a teacher does not make one "family". Once a teacher crosses over that line things will never be the same, I guarantee it. It may stay "under the radar" but it'll be there.
Well, as I said in my first response, I'm opinionated about this topic.
- rb
____________________
[ Now, I like Alexi's advice, forget the mouthpiece...
let's all kiss and make up ]
Post Edited (2005-09-21 00:24)
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2005-09-21 00:25
My bad Dave.
I guess in my opinion, I don't see why anything with the clarinet that IS physical, can't be positioned correctly physically if words or demonstrations aren't cutting it. In any sport or other hobby I find it common to physically rearrange a stance, or angle, etc. etc. Sometimes just saying "elbows up" in a batter's stance doesn't get across. Sometimes the person doesn't have the horse stance down quite correctly. And in clarinetting, sometimes the chin is pushed too far outward or the person's back is slouching. In which case I don't see why, with permission (I would assume from student AND guardian of student, if the student is underage) you couldn't help them out.
I guess in the military it's a little different as when I was told to "keep your chin in", and "pin my elbows", I was definitely PUT there. And without asking permission too! Those jerks!!! ![[grin]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie5.gif) lol.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2005-09-21 02:25
Alexi, I'm with you...but I do ask if it's ok if I touch a student prior to doing so. I rarely will ask to play a student's instrument, and will not do so if I have a cold. I will ask the student if they have a cold, however!
The only time I recall having played a student's setup, though, was a very informative moment. This is a student who can usually tell what I'm trying to get across by my words, but occasionally will say, "But I am doing that!" That was one of the occasions I tried her setup and, yes, her reed/mp combo was at fault...I promptly began teaching her how to adjust reeds, in fact!
I frequently will put a finger on a student's chin to show them that it is indeed moving. Often they do not have much sense of what their muscles are doing, and the studio where I teach most often has no mirror. Even with a mirror, the "feel" test seems to work better.
Muscle memory is usually aided by physical means, and much of the technique of playing an instrument (as in sports) is muscle memory, after all.
Katrina
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Author: 3dogmom
Date: 2005-09-22 00:01
In my public school, I would send students to wash something themselves - instructing them to use lots of hot water and soap. That way they have a comfort level with what is happening. All doors stay open and the students are always asked.
Sue Tansey
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Author: elmo lewis
Date: 2005-09-22 20:16
Reminds me of my lessons with a somewhat well-known clarinetist. He would take a drink of coffee, then take a drag off his cigarette, then say "Elmo, let me try your reed". It took about 10 minutes for the taste to go away.
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Author: ginny
Date: 2005-09-23 16:56
Playing is very physical. My most recent clarinet teacher would put a finger below my lip and try to get me to feel the change.
I was once the guina pig for a violin pedagogy class, when taking my MM on guitar. They nabbed me in the hall way and gave me a viola actually. The four of them worked my arms and hands and such and got me playing spicatto bowing (difficult to get) immediately. Then they'd let go and I would try to maintain the feeling physically. It was really effective.
I recall seeing a voice master class where the soprano was squeazed into giving real breath support. The difference was stunning.
Keep the door open and make sure you warn them. It's physical and mental. but words don't convey it sometimes.
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Author: ginny
Date: 2005-09-23 16:58
I would prefer a cleaner used when sharing mouthpieces. Reeds, no thank you. Hepatistis B is a very nasty disease. Mono is no nice either.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-09-23 17:00
Master Sax Prof was giving a Master Class and a univ student kept puffing his cheeks.
He put a pin next to his cheek and said "BLOW".......
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