 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: ClariBone
Date: 2005-09-19 21:41
Hello
I came to the realization that many music educators believe that one cannot play both a brass and woodwind instrument without negative effects to either one. I have not found this to be so. The only negative effect of me playing both, is not having enough time to practice (heavy academic course load this semester keeps me from playing as much as I would like). I have improved dramatically on both, maintaining my principal position in both school and community venues on both the clarinet, euphonium, and trombone. So my question, where are music educators being taught that playing a brass instrument in conjunction with a woodwind, would harm either one?? Thanks in Advance!!!
Clayton
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Author: BobD
Date: 2005-09-19 21:58
If you devote, say, 40% of your study time to brass that's 40% less time you have to devote to your woodwind. That 40% is the negative effect that is being implied. Yes?
Bob Draznik
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2005-09-19 22:10
I think what this person means is that it's thought that you can be an excellent doubler, however it's generally thought that you can only be an excellent doubler if your instruments are all from the same family (meaning someone can be an excellent trumpet/euphonium player, or a clarinet/sax player, but it's thought you can't be an excellent clarinet/trumpet player, or sax/trombone player.) I think that's the mentality that this person means (and I see it also more often than not)
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: ClariBone
Date: 2005-09-19 22:30
BobD
Yes that 40% was what I mentioned. However, I also researched different practicing strategies and feel I truly get the most from my limited time, hence the improvement.
Bradley
Yes the generalization. MOST performance majors make very little money (I realize there are exceptions, but I think you know as well as I, the numbers of poor clarinetists). MOST music educators (at least in my geographic location) are subject to this common...myth if I may. Hence my post. Playing different instruments is like...putting on a different "musical hat". You just "know" how it should be played once you pick it up (provided you take lessons and continue regular practice).
Alexi
That's exactly what I mean!!!
So, back to the question. Where are they being told this??
Post Edited (2005-09-19 22:32)
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2005-09-20 03:21
Ok...I'm gonna bite on this one and make a generalization myself...
I think many people in this world, music educators included, are lazy. That is, they'll do the minimum effort required to get by. Some just may not want to try to teach your embouchure muscles how to switch between different instruments.
This may not be true for all music educators, but it may be true for some...
Katrina
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2005-09-20 03:59
Katrina wrote:
> Ok...I'm gonna bite on this one and make a generalization
> myself...
>
> I think many people in this world, music educators included,
> are lazy. That is, they'll do the minimum effort required to
> get by. Some just may not want to try to teach your embouchure
> muscles how to switch between different instruments.
>
> This may not be true for all music educators, but it may be
> true for some...
>
> Katrina
Not to mention, that fingering would be much more similar amongst woodwinds with other woodwinds, and brass with other brass, instead of trying to completely teach your fingers new patterns.
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Markael
Date: 2005-09-20 11:16
I used to think that crossing over would mess up your embouchure. In fact, I think my band director said that. Maybe he was mistaken, or maybe it was one of those white lies. But understand, he may have been the best teacher I had in high school. My parents thought so, because band inspired me.
And why did band inspire me? Because it gave me a chance to play music in context of a large group, a group that I could be proud of, a group that had a sense of identity and purpose.
With that in mind, I think the statement about music educators being lazy is a bit unfair. It's true enough, because a certain amount of laziness is a part of human nature. Problem is, it misses the big picture.
In my opinion, kids who play in band generally tend to be better musicians than those who just take, for instance, piano lessons. They learn to read rhythms better, for one thing, because of all the syncopated music that is played these days. A lot of the rhythms they learn by rote, but often it sinks in, especially if they are taking private lessons also, either on the band instrument or piano.
A band director who has had to write a halftime show, find money somewhere to buy or repair instruments, worry about chaperones for a band trip, all this in addition to actual conducting, is not going to have too much enthusiasm about teaching or encouraging a reed player to play trumpet.
The problem with band directors in not laziness. A bigger problem with band directors is that some carelessly speak with too much authority about areas outside of their specific expertise. For instance, "don't rest your clarinet on your knee." That puts a student in a bind when the advice is plain wrong.
My point is that some music educators, such as the average band director, are generalists. Not only is it unfair to call them lazy just because they don't get into certain details, it is also important for them to keep focus on the big picture.
As for crossing over, I would think it has pluses and minuses. As Bob has said, it tends to spread one thin. On the other hand, it might deepen one's overall musicianship.
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Author: Matt Locker
Date: 2005-09-20 11:58
As both a French Horn & clarinet player, I find a couple things to note:
1) I can't play clarinet immediately after playing the horn. I find that I am incapable of forming my embouchure correctly. I suspect that the muscles used for horn playing that tire first are some of the same used for the clarinet embouchure. Going the other way (horn after clarinet) is no problem.
2) The bigger problem for me is hearing the pitch. The clarinet is in Bb or A, the horn is in F. It's no problem for clarinet - you press the keys & out pops the note. The bigger problem is with the horn. You press the keys & you're likely to get one of 2 or 3 notes. After playing clarinet I hear the notes in Bb. I've tried to remedy this issue by only playing horn for 2-3 days before any job.
With all this said, I do believe that playing horn has made me a better musician but a worse clarinetist. I think I've become more sensitive to pitch & timbre overall, and how the instruments fit together. My clarinet technique has suffered somewhat though over the couple years that I have again been playing horn. I believe the reality is it's almost impossible to give two instruments the attention they really need. With infinite time (maybe as a student) it can be done. With a normal life (work, wife, family) though, it would be pretty hard to be as good on both instruments as it would be on one.
This may not be true if you double on sax/clarinet, flute/clarinet/,.....
MOO,
Matt
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2005-09-20 12:54
Markael wrote:
> In my opinion, kids who play in band generally tend to be
> better musicians than those who just take, for instance, piano
> lessons.
I would totally disagree with your statement IRT piano; I've found those people who have studied piano and become reasonably competent (Bach's 2 & some 3 part inventions, Mendelsshon's "Songs Without Words" level) to be miles ahead of those who haven't.
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Author: William
Date: 2005-09-20 14:54
Your band director should tune in the Tonight Show on CBS and catch Tom "Bones" Malone, Paul Shaffers trombonist, playing Stars & Stripes on the piccolo--a solo that many flute majors fret over having to play. He also has a tenor sax by his stand and, according to a recent artical in MUSICIAN, he also plays trumpet, flute, tuba and bass guitar.
I am a music educator who believes that playing different instruments has no adverse effect on ones embouchure as long as equal and quality practice time is devoted to each. Personally, I am a woodwind doubler and find no fingering or embouchure problems involving quick switchs between instrumennts--such as bari sax or bass clarinet to effer, flute or sop clarinet. It just takes practice. I also play the trumpet and french horn for demonstrative purposes, but as I am not "afflicted" with perfect pitch, the change in sounding notes does not matter to me. I just "play them like they are". It just all comes down to devoting equal amounts of practice to all of the instruments that you want to be competent in perfroming with. The only factor that "ruins" your embouchure is lack of practice, not change of instrument.
As for playing another players (students) setup, I will just say that, over the years, I have caught more colds from "your flutes not playing??--here, let me try it..........." than from having someone close by cough in my direction. My recommendation is, NEVER TRY SOMEONE ELSES INSTRUMENT, if you are afraid of catching a few little germs. But if you must, be sure to use disinfectant before trying, and also before returning the instrument to its owner. I used to tell my beginning sixth grade students--who always like to try each others instruments--that playing your neighbors horn is just like kissing. That often took care of that minor band room management problem--as well as preventing the spread of germs between the woodwinds and the brass. (percussion another issue). I'm retired now, but still volunteer beginning lessons at my old school twice a week--and, I never play a students instrument--to "check it out"--without first disinfecting the mouthpiece. And I haven't had the sniffles for over a year.........
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Author: Markael
Date: 2005-09-20 15:20
Mark, I should clarify my statement about band members being better musicians. We might still disagree, but my statement was probably misleading.
I play piano, and I can't even imagine how a person could come to an understanding of scales and chords without a piano background. It's possible; it's just that I don't understand how it is possible because my concept of all that is pianistically based.
In the post I was specifically thinking of reading and playing rhythms, and of the sense of music that one gets from the experience of playing as a part of a group. Also, I was thinking of some students who take both band and piano, and how band reinforces and gives life to concepts already being taught.
Further, most of my experience is with those who have not advanced beyond late intermediate piano.
Post Edited (2005-09-20 15:24)
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2005-09-20 16:38
Markael wrote:
> In the post I was specifically thinking of reading and playing
> rhythms,
Trying to play 3 against 2, left hand to right and back again, is plenty difficult for me
> and of the sense of music that one gets from the
> experience of playing as a part of a group.
That's something I'd agree with, except for the fact that most bands I see in schools are too large; the school jazz bands or musical pit bands tend to have the right number of people (IMO) for a director to work with each student for blending/rhythm/intonation work. It's got to be well-nigh impossible (and frustrating!) for those 100 member bands ...
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Author: Ishikawa Naoki
Date: 2005-09-21 18:16
I read this thread and had to comment. One name comes to mind that everyone here should go out and find something done by him. The great Ira Sullivan. He's as capable on reeds as he is on brass; which proves it can be done.
Ishi
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Author: Ed
Date: 2005-09-21 18:54
Another multi instrumentalist who crosses over is the tuba player Howard Johnson. He also plays baritone sax and bass clarinet. I remember hearing him play on any of these quite comfortably in Gil Evans band and on various studio dates.
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Author: larryb
Date: 2005-09-21 19:09
Don't forget the great Benny Carter - he played trumpet, in addition to alto sax and clarinet. Probably played more trumpet in his early years (1920s, 1930s).
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2005-09-21 19:49
Oooh! Oooh! Oooh! Time for another generalization!!!
;)
Why are all of the multi-instrumentalists listed above in "commercial" music venues or jazz?? Why can't someone become an equally great classical trumpet player and classical clarinet player??
Consider that can of worms opened...
Katrina
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Author: clarinetwife
Date: 2005-09-21 20:15
Katrina wrote:
>
> Why are all of the multi-instrumentalists listed above in
> "commercial" music venues or jazz?? Why can't someone become
> an equally great classical trumpet player and classical
> clarinet player??
>
>
I think rather than thinking about a player's abilities on various instruments, it helps to think about what is valued in different venues. You can't play both trumpet and clarinet in a symphony--the conductor needs a great player in both chairs. Soloists and recording artists in the classical realm need monster abilities to be asked to travel and perform concerti or to record repertoire. I do know a guy who plays cello in our local pro symphony and makes good money playing trumpet in churches at Christmas and Easter along with other gigs.
On the other hand, people who hire for "commercial" music absolutely do value versatility. They need a job done and it often doesn't economically make sense to hire someone for each instrument when you can get someone who can cover more parts. In jazz, one might want a particular sound on a particular chart, so versatility is also valued.
Post Edited (2005-09-21 20:16)
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Author: donald
Date: 2005-09-21 20:54
interestingly, at least one fine/successful teacher in the USA (at respectable college) teaches that a clarinet embochure should be similar to a good trumpet embochure (can't comment on the horn).
in neither should the lips be "pushed forward"
in neither should the lips be "over the teeth"
in both the jaw should be "set down" so that the "oh" is below the top teeth.
in both the embochure is a "structure" into/against which the instrument is placed (although many clarinet students imagine that they are "holding the clarinet" with their embochure- a subtle difference)
there are, of course, differences that become more apparent the more advanced the player becomes.
this is not just the theory of one crazy teacher, by the way, and it's not just some idea i lifted from a nz country band director.
keep playing the good tunes
donald
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Author: sarnia
Date: 2005-09-24 09:25
Having played Baritone Bb in a A grade Brass Band ,and also played a Eb alto in a Army Band in England (Military band) I agree it is difficult to go from one
instrument to the other. But many youngsters are given thier grounding in Brass Bands, Thus nearly always treble clef & Bb instruments ,the pitch is difficult along with the embouchure,I now still teach two lads trumpet and play
euphonium with them at certain times, then the following day I play clarinet for 1 1/2 hr its not difficult to switch as long as a break is given to the change
of instruments,, (both Bb) So, yes its not the best situation to change on the same day especially if the programme is heavy and demanding , I just concentrate on clarinet now , the mouth muscles certainly feel better & stronger just being subjected to the one mouth piece.....
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-09-24 11:55
I always dread playing piccolo (and flute to a lesser degree) right after playing bari or alto sax, or even oboe - it takes a little while to get me chops into shape to be able to belt out the high notes.
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Author: William
Date: 2005-09-25 15:03
Katrina, there is no good reason--other than lack of dedication and practice time--why a performer could not acheive virtuosic status on the trumpet as well as the clarinet. Perhaps it would be timely for Mr Combs to start taking a few brass lessons and show us how it could be done.
(com'on Larry, just think about it--no pesky reeds required, just a great set of chops. Or maybe you can get Mr Herseith to come out of retirement with a few clarinet sessons))
Post Edited (2005-09-25 15:05)
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2005-09-25 17:29
In my high school, we had one trumpet player who was phenominal. He was never really 'into' playing music (and so never tried out for area, region, district, etc. bands), however he had sat first trumpet as far as I can remember, and had an EXCELLENT handle on the instrument. Both classically and in our jazz ensemble.
So imagine my surprise when one day, towards the end of his high school career, we all sit down to practice our jazz during class, and breaks out a flute.
And played EXTREMELY well.
I think it took us ALL by surprise.
So while he may not have been a professional doubler of that sort, he certainly had dedicated enough time/practice to the trumpet and flute to really wow us at a high school level.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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