 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: bryris
Date: 2005-09-17 13:55
I just sent my newly acquired R-13 (purchased used, 1981 model) to John Butler for an overhaul. After a preliminary review, he phoned me up and told me that over all it looks good, no cracks or chips, the keys are tight, and that he really didn't think it had been played that much. However, he did tell me that apparently somewhere along the line, one of the tone hole chimneys had been repaired. He mentioned that it looked like the repair was done well, and so I trust his assessment.
My question is this: what are the chances that this could give me problems down the line?
Regarding repair, I have read about how a really good fix is to have the tone hole drilled out, and a new one fabricated and reinstalled. I am not sure how mine was actually repaired, but assuming it was merely reglued back....how do the two repairs compare as far as longevity, intonation, or other side effects?
Thanks.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: hans
Date: 2005-09-17 14:27
An expert (Mr. Butler) has already judged the repair to be of good quality, so that there would seem to be no further cause for concern.
If/when it fails, you could have it repaired with the technique of your choosing.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: bryris
Date: 2005-09-17 14:30
hans,
This is just for my own education. I am not questioning whether Mr. Butler's assessment is accurate.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2005-09-17 14:58
I have used several different methods for repairing chimneys, over a few decades. I do not recall any of them failing.
I think the issue is not so much the method, but how well that method was carried out. Any method can be either done well, or done poorly.
John appears to have assessed that the method appears to have been done well.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-09-17 15:20
I saw a bad example done to a 1010 by a complete cowboy - the RH finger 3 chimney was replaced right through to the bore!
And a bad job at that as well - the top of the chimney and tonehole wasn't even perfectly round as if it had been hewn from a piece of plastic and shaped with an axe and a rasp to finish with, and the bottom enters the bore leaving a rough raised edge.
And this was done by someone that calls themself a repairer, and the strange thing is that people actually rate his work when it's clear to see just how bad a job he does.
I should be seeing this 1010 in the near future to fully overhaul (the owner specifies cork pads as he's a vegetarian, and that appeals to him more than leather pads for obvious reasons), and wonder if I should just do the job properly. Only problem is the fact this will mean bushing through to the bore again, which isn't what I would want to do.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: bryris
Date: 2005-09-17 15:29
Thanks for the information. I have been trying to learn more lately about the mechanics of the clarinet. Not so I can work on them myself, but just for education. I've been playing for 12 years (though I took a 3 year break), but never took the time to learn the mechanical terms.
John called me up and told me about the chimney and I was like, "who"?. He had explain what that was to me. And, I didn't even know what undercut toneholes were until a few weeks ago.
So, I am working to expand my clarinet knowledge and vocabulary, as well as my playing ability. So, I'll post some seemingly silly questions from time to time, but its all aimed toward that goal.
Thanks again!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-09-17 18:53
When I rebuilt my old pair of Centered Tones back in 2001 I bushed all the toneholes except the bottom four with PVC as they were all getting pretty worn out and were chipped, not to mention getting flatter in height as they'd been topped that often.
That involved measuring all the toneholes and keeping all the relevant sizes written down, then cutting out all the existing toneholes with a flat cutter (this cuts a hole with a flat bottom) to a depth of about 3-4mm into the body (and not all the way through to the bore) and fitting a plastic bush into the newly cut hole.
The bush (a disk of PVC some 5mm in height cut from solid PVC bar to whatever diameter the bedplace or cutter is) was then degreased and glued into the hole and pushed down so there was no gap let at the bottom of the hole. I used superglue to glue the bushes in, they were a nice tight fit and have never come loose in that time, and probably never will. While the toneholes were still in line with the cutter I made a centre marker in the middle of the bush so I could line up the bedplace cutter later on, after all the holes had been bushed.
Then using a cutter to make the profile of the tonehole bedplace, I re-cut all the bushes, then drilled through the bush to open up the tonehole to the right size (and fortunately everything lined up nicely). With plastic bushes, the bedplaces are uniform in that they'll have no vessels or chips and other flaws that wooden ones have, which need to be filled to make airtight.
And as I was cork padding these clarinets, having plastic bushings have a much greater chance of being airtight as there aren't any natural flaws, except in the cork pads which have to be good quality so there aren't any holes or hard lumps in the face of the pad right where they seat on the bedplace crown that will cause leaks.
With a wider flat cutter than the one used to drill out the toneholes, I skimmed the tops of all the chimneys (removing between 0.5mm - 1mm) to make them all crisp and flat, as they had worn with age.
And having the articulated G# tonehole going through the socket and tenon on these clarinets, I had to bush the top part which involved taking the socket ring off and drilling down to the socket liner, then bushing and recutting as before.
The bottom four toneholes were tidied up by recutting them with the right sized cutters.
All new screws were fitted as well to both sets, mainly stainless steel ones.
And both instruments are still working well, and are comletely airtight.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: jbutler ★2017
Date: 2005-09-17 19:29
The repair is solid with the top of the chimney (tone hole) the same thickness throughout the circumference and level with the other two. I mentioned this to Bryan to apprise him of the condition of the instrument per his request.
Now, back to work...
jbutler
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: bryris
Date: 2005-09-18 00:34
Having bought this clarinet off of ebay, I was a little apprehensive about its condition. There are many risks with buying a clarinet off of ebay, sight unseen, but there are some great deals. Its a bit of a double edged sword.
I wanted to get John's take on it quickly so that if there were some big red flags, I could still maneuver with the seller regarding a refund.
Now that I know its in good shape, my mind is at ease and I am very excited about getting it back whenever its done.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: larryb
Date: 2005-09-18 10:59
jbutler (or anyone else who has an answer):
Is it possible to replace the chimneys on a Selmer Signature after they've been sealed using crazy glue? this was done to my instrument years ago and seems to work, but I'm wondering if it wouldn't be wise at some time to just have them all replaced/restored by a qualified technician. I assume that even the crazy glue fix will come undone eventually through natural wood expansion/contraction.
I was inspired by Chris P's interesting post above.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: jbutler ★2017
Date: 2005-09-18 14:30
larryb,
Why would you want to replace all of them if only one has been damaged in the past? Perhaps I'm reading your thread incorrectly. I believe in the old philosophy “if it isn’t broke, don’t fix it”. I have not seen he practice of “sealing” around a tone hole or chimney with cyanacrlyate glue before and seems rather odd to me. Now, I refer to a “chimney” as one of the five openings that a “ring” key surrounds when actuated, perhaps you are referring to the openings that are covered by a pad.
There are some repair technicians that specialize in tone hole and tenon replacement. These specialists have the lathes, mills, grenadilla stock, and experience in this type of work. I contract this type of work to either Eric Satterlee in Meridian, MI or Carl Votaw in Springfield, MO depending on which one can get the job done in the time frame necessary.
jbutler
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-09-18 18:23
I repaired a chimney (again, RH finger 3) on a Centered Tone which had a piece missing, and it had been filled a bit in the past with shellac, but not enough to even sort out the problem as there was still a gap.
So after cleaning out all the old 'repair' I built up the missing part with superglue and grenadilla wood dust in several applications, then filed and smoothed it all out so only on close inspection it cold be seen that work was done, but that was well over ten years ago and this clarinet has been played a lot since then, and the repair hasn't failed.
If I'm only recutting the bedplaces (the top of the tonehole where the pad seats) I usually skim them lightly to expose new wood underneath, and if there are any chips or vessels on the crown of the bedplace, I go round with very thin superglue (CA) to strengthen the crown, and fill the imperfections, and sprinkle wood dust on to absorb any glue on the surface, and re-cut with the same cutter, which cleans off the excess (and now hardened) glue and leaves a nice sharp bedplace with no imperfections, ideal for cork pads (or silicone rubber pads if I ever use them) to seat on.
Of course you do need specialist equipment (all the various cutters and machinery) to do this well. And even drill new pillar holes or toneholes if making extra keywork.
I still haven't got round to experimenting by making a Selmer Marchi System type barrel with the split octave key and vent on it - probably as I don't know the relevant dimensions.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
