 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2005-09-13 22:39
Today, while listening to WQXR during my job of delivering car parts, I was listening to the Orpheus Chamber Orchestra, they played a piece (around 3:30 PM EST) that seemed very "gypsy" or "carnival"-like in nature. With the tempo, beat, etc. However I thought it was played TOO cleanly. I tried to envision a bunch of gypsies or a traveling band playing these fun, upbeat melodies, however simply couldn't because the accoustics in this recording were perfect, each note, perfect, etc. etc. Granted, the orchestra playing it was only doing as they were taught all their life (trying to play it perfectly), however I felt it really lost it's roots and it's credibility due to this.
In short, I disliked it only because it was played too well. I could see a group of amateur hobbyist's playing these pieces and me getting more into it.
Anyone else maybe hear that recording or some other piece that they felt would have been done better justice if it were NOT played by a professional orchestra, in a professional and accoustically sound studio?
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-09-13 22:54
Other tunes spring to mind here - I think most versions I've heard of 'An American In Paris' and 'Rhapsody...' are too clinical and not relaxed (ie. there's plenty of good opportunities to play relaxed swung quavers in certain parts, but no-one ever seems to want to), and another good example is Ravel's 'Bolero' - especially the tenor and soprano sax solos (and the trombone one later on), too much emphasis on playing them absolutely metrical just loses the feel completely, and especially when they try to do the gliss to the top Eb in absolute perfect time rather than treating the solo as a solo, and pulling things around more - they can always catch up as the rest of the orchestra aren't following the soloists, they're sticking to the beat and the soloists have plenty of freedom.
There's plenty of time to do these little things. But I can only imagine the sax players when they're playing this, probably sitting bolt upright with a snotty, emotionless expression and a precisely measured and sterile solo to match.
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Author: clarinetwife
Date: 2005-09-13 23:04
One of my favorite tracks by the Chieftains was recorded in a pub in Spain, with all sorts of singing and carrying on. There is a track with the Chieftains and a symphony orchestra on the same cd, with a much more refined sound, instrumentally and recording-wise. I do enjoy the track in the pub more.
Just yesterday I had a coaching session on some Latin-style orch music, and one of the things I will be working on is popping some of the staccato and accented notes a little more and blowing through notes in spots that might be tapered in more classical repertoire. I think I will have fun with the music for this concert, and for our spring concert we are teaming up with a local big band. Both concerts will give us the chance to let down our hair a bit.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2005-09-14 00:58
bflatclarinetist wrote:
> When you were describing how perfect it sounded, I was kind of
> imagining it being a midi.
It was very much like so. It was like watching Pavarotti try to sing a BB King song.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Markael
Date: 2005-09-14 01:25
Pavoratti sings BB King!
Boy, I thought "Dean Martin sings country" was bad!
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2005-09-14 02:12
Hi,
I have a couple of CDs by this group and they play the pants off everything. There is some really bravura playing in all sections. I think our own John Moses has played with this group; perhaps he will add a comment.
Alexi, your comment "it was played too well" is puzzling. You were kidding, right?
HRL
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Author: RodRubber
Date: 2005-09-14 02:18
"Alexi, your comment "it was played too well" is puzzling. You were kidding, right?"
I think alexi was trying to illustrate how many times, a classical performance can be so polished, so as to polish away the earthiness, or nastiness of a piece of music. This can be heard especially in a piece that is gypsy inspired! I agree, sometimes you should just play a little nastier. Try it!
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2005-09-14 22:11
Perhaps I was mistaken about the day, and unfortunately I missed the name of the piece (my job requires me to jump in and out of the truck very often so I often only catch pieces of music), but I do seem to remember "Orpheus Chamber Orchestra" being named, and it certianly was a gypsy-esque, dance tune.
And I definitely WASN'T kidding. It seemed way too clean, way too precise for what was (as I depicted in my mind) music that would be played on the streets for the spare change of passers-by as some troupe of some sort danced to it.
Hank, they were certainly PHENOMINAL players. Excellent classical musicians, however it just didn't seem to fit the bill. This piece may have been better off being done by a swing orchestra of sorts (like an Artie Shaw style orchestra). While I didn't mean to take away from the calibur of the group (they sounded GREAT), it just seemed (Rod_Rubber put it much better than I could) that it should've sounded a little 'nastier' and not have everything played so unbelievably cleanly.
Alexi
Maybe a better relation would be reffering it to someone trying to play the beginning of the Rhapsody in Blue in a strict rhythm, unwavering.
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2005-09-14 22:45
The biggest problem is that there is so much prestige involved among musicians in the classical field. We are basically trained to deliver notes as cleanly and accurate as possible instead of playing and presenting music for what it is. The result is too often that the music loses both character and life.
“The operation succeeded but the patient died.”
Alphie
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2005-09-14 23:02
Alphie wrote:
> The biggest problem is that there is so much prestige involved
> among musicians in the classical field. We are basically
> trained to deliver notes as cleanly and accurate as possible
> instead of playing and presenting music for what it is. The
> result is too often that the music loses both character and
> life.
> “The operation succeeded but the patient died.”
>
> Alphie
That sounds like what could very well have happened. There is no doubt in my mind that this group would nail classical literature and blow me away with that reportoire. But (at least in this ONE song I heard), when confronted with something that should have been played in a more loose, and UNcivilized style, they didn't do so hot.
I also remember (on one of our member's links to his/her band's homepage), a comment about how some bands specialize in a certain style of music, be it swing, classical, pop, etc. But how this band that he/she were in has practiced to be able to play MANY different styles equally well. Now I have a better understanding of what that comment meant (for the life of my I can't remember who's signature held that page . . . maybe someone else will remember.)
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2005-09-15 08:27
Karl Heinz Steffens was in my country for a concert and he played Prokofiev's Hebrew Themes and Stravinsky's Soldier's Tale. He was amazing, but he played the Hebrew Themes in a perfect classical way like sfalexi described. I still enjoyed it a lot just because I heard him play (I would probably enjoy hearing him practice) but I would prefer if it was played looser and more like klezmer even.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2005-09-15 11:12
I guess the freedom of interpretation is one of the things that makes music so wonderful
Bob Draznik
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2005-09-15 20:12
"Freedom of interpretation" requires as all types of freedom also a responsibility. Why should music in serious environments be a victim of anarchy in the name of artistry? We classical musicians are the worst. Most people who’re trying to be “cross-over” have no scruples what so ever. Just because they already have a career as classical musicians they believe of them selves that they master everything. I don’t doubt their love for the “cross-music” they try to produce but when it comes to playing they’re just amateurs. Yo-Yo-Ma is a joke when he plays Brazilian music. I don’t understand how he dares to sit on the same podium as his professional Brazilian colleagues with his totally “classical” approach. Luckily he’s doing Dvorak when he comes to us in December.
Alphie
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Author: clarinetwife
Date: 2005-09-15 20:36
Alphie wrote:
> "Freedom of interpretation" requires as all types of freedom
> also a responsibility.
Yes. Although, freedom as license and freedom as "working freely for the good" have been discussed and argued for centuries!
Alphie also wrote: Just because
> they already have a career as classical musicians they believe
> of them selves that they master everything. I don’t doubt
> their love for the “cross-music” they try to produce but
> when it comes to playing they’re just amateurs.
This can certainly be true. Yet, there are great classical musicians on this board who are also into klezmer, swing, Bosnian, and many other genre. Around here some of our symphony violinists are also champion fiddlers. It almost seems like a kind of bilingualism that takes much effort, study, and respect for both cultures to achieve.
Post Edited (2005-09-15 20:38)
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-09-15 21:24
The very same 'musical bilingualism' that allows, for example, Paquito d'Rivera to play classical music and Latin jazz with equal facility and fidelity.
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2005-09-15 21:42
I'm not talking about the "real" bilingual or trilingual musicians, only the ones who are naive enough and lack any self criticism. Personally I know and I’m proud of performing music from baroque to early 20th century, ensemble jazz as well as music inspired by folk music from my country. For the rest I’m still learning, constantly.
For my first performance of the Brahms quintet I bought a big box of CDs with original recordings of gypsy music from early 20th century. I was listening for hours. For a week I went for dinner at a restaurant called “Little Budapest”. They had a Gypsy band playing there and I spent a lot of time with the clarinetist. We also played together a few times. I did this to have a look into the world of music that inspired Brahms when he wrote the second movement. I never heard any interpretation besides Charles Draper’s recording from 1927 that ever satisfied me and before I learned more I could not play it with dignity.
In my orchestra we have many folk musicians, they started at an early age with this. We also have a jazz band with very experienced people.
Alphie
Post Edited (2005-09-15 21:44)
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Author: clarinetwife
Date: 2005-09-15 21:57
Alphie, you cared and you listened and studied. Being able to string together words in another language, even at a fairly high level, doesn't make one bilingual. There is a cultural component. Perhaps that is what is missing in those who, as you say, are "naive enough and lack any self-criticism". They seem to think that if they can read the notes they can play the music.
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2005-09-15 22:31
Clarinetwife, I agree completely. One may be able to read another language without understanding, but to freely speak, understand and express things in another language you do have to study a lot. Upon that comes the cultural factor.
I can never learn how to play gypsy music. Maybe I’ve learned how to play Brahms interpretation of gypsy music decently. At least I don’t feel ashamed when performing the quintet. Like, my English is far from being perfect, still I dare to involve myself in deep conversations with you guys. ;-)
Some music we carry with us by tradition and early exposure. Other music we can still learn by experience and a lot of studying until it becomes convincing, genuine and most of all honest. But some music we can never get access to and at least I prefer to leave that to people who know better, at least as a professional.
Alphie
Post Edited (2005-09-15 22:36)
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