 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: D
Date: 2005-09-11 20:23
Am I correct in thinking that the clarinet gets sharper as it warms up and the flute gets flatter?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-09-11 20:29
Both get sharper.
The clarinet is more notoripus for being incredibly flat when it's cold and the flute is already slightly sharp when it's cold, then they both get sharper as they warm up - the clarinet will get to playing pitch or just a bit over, and the flute goes incredibly sharp.
Flutes are always sharp.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-09-11 20:46
My current Yamaha flute (YFL 674) is ridiculously sharp in the altissimo register, so I've had to put the end stopper about 2mm away from the embouchure hole.
I used to have an old Selmer (Paris, and NOT one of those Selmer USA things) flute and I struggled to get up to pitch with that.
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Author: D
Date: 2005-09-12 06:10
So if I am dead on 440 when I put the thing together and it is cold, after it warms up then I have a good chance at being in tune at 442? (I'm in the UK) I am a little concerned that I will be flat with nowhere to go if the orchestra is slightly sharper than 442.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-09-12 08:49
The orchestra should be playing at 440, I don't know of any orchestras over here that tune to 442 or more.
If they are playing sharper, then they shouldn't be for the sake of us woodwinds - our instruments are built to play at a specific pitch and that can't be altered through playing, it's alright for the strings as they can tune to any pitch they like, but you can't alter a clarinet in that manner.
But for clarinets generally, it's always better to be slightly sharp when you've warmed up as it's always easier to flatten a note than sharpen a note.
If the orchestra want to go sharper than 442, then put it to them that they ought to buy you a clarinet built at 444Hz for that purpose.
In all honesty, UK orchestras always tune to 440Hz - who sets the tuning in your orchestra? Check they've got their tuner calibrated at 440 Hz as that's the standard here in the UK.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-09-12 09:35
That was a quote relayed from my clarinet teacher, he once knew a conductor that kept moaning that 'Flutes are sharp, flutes are ALWAYS sharp!' - and he'd use that quote himself when conducting concert bands at college.
But there is definitely truth in there, flutes are, indeed, sharp.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2005-09-12 09:56
"But there is definitely truth in there, flutes are, indeed, sharp."
Strange, I was never cut by a flute.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-09-12 10:03
No, just the player.
Watch the inside edge in some headjoints, they can be razor sharp!
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Author: Markael
Date: 2005-09-12 11:09
This is sort of off the subject, but anyway--
In the Mamas and the Papas recording of California Dreamin' the flute sounds sharp to me at the beginning of the solo.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-09-12 11:56
Have a listen to the Moody Blues - 'Nights In White Satin' flute solo.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2005-09-12 12:40
"...In the Mamas and the Papas recording of California Dreamin' the flute sounds sharp to me at the beginning of the solo..."
Bud Shank's flute solo is not only sharp, but high, too. 
...GBK
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2005-09-12 13:21
If that's the solo I remember it is without a doubt one of the finest examples of sharpness out there. I didn't realize it was Bud Shank. Was it an alto flute or C flute?
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-09-12 13:21
I'd dig out my copy of that, but my turntable conked out years ago.
I do like that song.
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Author: Markael
Date: 2005-09-12 13:54
"Bud Shank's flute solo is not only sharp, but high, too." (GBK)
It's entirely possible that the whole band was high.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2005-09-12 14:57
You can buy a decent turntable for under $100 today. Regarding clarinets think "cold flat" as in an apartment without heat......OR.....a "hot" gal is "sharp". It's better to have a clarinet that tends to play sharp because you can use your "adjusting barrel" to flatten it. Chance of being "dead on" when your horn is cold!!!!I think not. You can always get a shorter barrel if you're still flat compared to the group.....one from a Buffet E11 would probably do it. ....blah,blah,blah
Bob Draznik
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Author: D
Date: 2005-09-12 14:58
Chris P,
Interesting thing, I was utterly convinced that the main division of tuning standards was USA 442 and UK 440, but then after having a bit of a period of self doubt I did a search on here the other evening and the general consensus seemed to be that the USA tune to 440 and Europe to 442. So then I was confused. The orchestra I play in has been on summer break and during that time I have acquired a new intrument. As the new season approaches then of course panic sets in. I do hope you are right because 440 with the option of pulling out a little would be so much better than having to get a shorter barrel!
Thanks all for the responses.
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Author: D
Date: 2005-09-12 15:04
Bob. I kid you not. I tried a cold instrument against a friends expensive tuner (assuming that that piece of kit is correct) and got a bang on 440. We didn't have time to look at the other notes, but it did kick start my mini panic of 'what if I need to be 442! How sharp can I force this thing to go and will warming up help?!'
Or course, if his tuner is way off then goodness knows what note I am playing! Guess I will find out at the first rehersal in a few weeks.
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Author: Mike Clarinet
Date: 2005-09-12 15:23
In Europe, we tune to 440Hz. Most wind instruments are made slightly sharp when cold so that they can be pulled out slightly to tune them I believe Buffet clarinets as supplied with 66mm barrel are tuned to 442Hz. If you are consistently sharp, you can use a longer barrel.
When any wind instrument warms up, the material that the instrument is made of expands in all directions. Wood is a poor thermal conductor so with wooden instruments, the inside of the tube is often warmer than the outside when played, so the inside expands more. The only direction that the material can expand in is inwards, which reduces the diameter of the tube, which increases the frequency of any note (i.e. goes sharp). Because a flute is made of metal, which is a much better conductor of heat, the outside can expand as it warms up resulting is less pitch change. Even if there is a temperature differential through the thickness of the metal, the effect is not as marked as it it with a wooden instrument. It's not that clarinets go sharp and flutes go flat, its flutes go sharp and clarinets go sharper.
That's what I understand, anyway.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-09-12 16:06
I must admit I can lip up to 443-444 Hz (to be in tune with the musicpartner accompaniment CD) on my Series 9s with a 68mm barrel, and up to 445Hz with the 67mm barrel, but it is knackering!
And definitely play with ease at 440Hz with the 68mm barrel as I don't need to pull it out as I would with the 67mm one.
I've never known of any UK orchestra (all using modern instruments) tune to anything but 440Hz in recent years.
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Author: GoatTnder
Date: 2005-09-12 16:17
The nice thing about a clarinet compared to a flute is that, being made of wood, it holds the pitch better once it's warmed up. I recently played a show where I doubled (tripled?) alto sax, clarinet, and flute. When I would pick up my flute, there was about three seconds where it was incredibly flat if I didn't have a chance to blow some air through to warm it up. I didn't have that problem with the clarinet. And saxes you can lip all over the place, so whatever... Luckily, the silver flute would warm up really easily, so it only took a couple seconds of blowing air through it to get it back in tune.
Also, the Choir/Orchestra group at my university tunes to 442 or sometimes 443 because pianos at most churches are tuned up there. It's really unfortunate when the air conditioning in the church is turned up too...
Andres Cabrera
South Bay Wind Ensemble
sbwe@sbmusic.org
Post Edited (2005-09-12 16:29)
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Author: BelgianClarinet
Date: 2005-09-12 16:26
I always thought in Europe 'we' tune up to 442Hz, at least that's done in all non-pro orchestra's I play in (about 4) and also in de pro orchestra of which I know people playing. Actually they even tune higher sometimes.
On the matter of warming up/pitch up. I always thought that the behaviour of the air changes with temperature. if it is really the 'size' of the instrument that changes (gets larger with heat) then we should end up lower ?
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2005-09-12 16:33
In the US, they tune to 440.
In Europe, to 442 or higher.
In England, we tune to 440. England is not in Europe other than by the merest accident of geography.
(ducks for cover)
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If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-09-12 16:34
And add to that, condensation in the bore is effectively narrowing the bore too, so does a combination of warm (and less dense) air on an instrument that is expanding through temperature rise ermmm....
I'm out of my depth now!
I never was good at physics, or anything remotely academic to be honest.
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2005-09-12 18:22
Basically all flutes made before the 1960th were too high. All flutes were made in standard pitch A=435, all according to Boehm’s cylindrical standard model from 1847. As the pitch went up to 440 and more, all they did was shortening the head joint and pulled the stop cork out a bit to make it play higher. As a result the flute was somewhat in tune with all fingers closed but tuning got unstable the more holes were opened. The person who finally re-scaled the flute to fit A=440 was Albert Cooper in the 1960th. A=440 had been stabilized around 1950 as being the world wide standard pitch. But as we know it still differs by a few hertz between the continents.
Alphie
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-09-12 20:07
The Yamaha flutes (and pretty much all other Japanese-built and other pro flutes) are built to 442Hz (I see Powell will build to 445Hz), though the current 'Type 4' scale they use does make the altissimo register go very sharp.
Even with the headjoint pulled out it's still painfully sharp, so I've moved the end stopper back by 2mm to put the octaves in tune - and this seems to work well.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2005-09-12 22:25
Chris P said,Quote:
I must admit I can lip up to 443-444 Hz (to be in tune with the musicpartner accompaniment CD) on my Series 9s with a 68mm barrel, and up to 445Hz with the 67mm barrel, but it is knackering! Thank god. I thought that something was horribly wrong with my playing when I tried to play with a music accompaniment CD for one piece that I have. At least it's much more comforting to know that it may very well have been the CD. I thought I was just horribly out of tune and everyone else was nice enough not to tell me . . .
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2005-09-13 08:12
Music accompaniment CDs seem to go by their own rules. I have one recorded in Germany that's at 440. I have an American one that's at 442. I suspect the former was recorded at 442 and the latter at 440, and the recording engineers "adjusted" them.
Both CDs provide tuning notes (as the last track - why not the first track?????) but neither tells you what pitch standard they used.
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If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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Author: D
Date: 2005-09-13 08:30
I am so glad that I am not the only one who seems to have read conflicting opinions on this stuff.
I have a yamaha flute which actually now has a dark line in the silver because it always gets pulled out to almost the same spot every time I played it.
Glad to hear most people think that a UK orchestra could be reasonably expected to tune to 440. I shall have to see what happens when we start up again, and fingers crossed that the oboe player is on a 440 instrument.
Thanks for all your input, I feel a lot less stupid now!
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2005-09-13 09:06
"In the Mamas and the Papas recording of California Dreamin' the flute sounds sharp to me at the beginning of the solo."
I found a recording of this (from a friend), and unfortunately being sharp is not the main problem with this solo....
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-09-13 16:46
re. Musicpartner CD accompt.,
On the Schumann Fantasiestueke CD (I don't know how to type umlauts - was there an umlaut on the 'U' of 'umlaut'?), it gives a 20 or so second tuning track, not a sine wave or similar sustained pitch, but repeated piano A, and they do state that is at 443Hz, which isn't good for any of us with 440 instruments.
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