 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: joannew
Date: 2005-09-05 19:35
I've spent the last couple of weeks reading all the posts here by people badmouthing alto clarinets (with only the extremely rare dissenting voice) while anxiously awaiting my new (to me) FA Uebel alto. I must say it's a fascinating horn. Most noticeably it has a straight wooden bell, which with it's silver crook and lack of bell ring, gives it somewhat of an english horn look. Boehm system, with a combination of open rings and plateau keys, with comfortable spacing for the fingers. Low E only, no E flat. It has a narrow bore for an alto, taking a basett horn mouthpiece and therefore standard B flat reeds. It takes a neckstrap or stands on a floor peg, which bends around the flare of the bell.
The keywork is a fine example of German engineering. Lots of adjustment screws: the double register key mechanism alone has 6! Something I've never come across before is these tiny adjustment screws in each of the rod keys, through the pillar (perpendicular to the rod) at each end, presumably to take up any play in the screw/pillar mechanism when things start to wear? (giving a grand total of 10 adjustment parameters in the register key setup, regardless of pads & springs!)
Crazy old ligature (I know how much exitement ligatures generate around here!), the likes of which I've never seen: one huge screw that screws in towards the reed rather than across it, with a big fat pressure plate which covers the entire bark of the reed.
As to age, I can narrow it down quite well: the horn is stamped made in GDR, which puts it after 1949, while the case is marked Rudall Carte (importer/ distributor for UK I presume), who were taken over by Boosey by 1955.
After not having so much as seen an alto since I wrestled with an old Leblanc in clarinet choir throughout jr & sr high school, I'm looking forward to getting to know this specimen, no matter how obscure!
Wish me luck!
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Author: Gandalfe
Date: 2005-09-05 19:38
I purchased my wife a Leblanc Paris alto clarinet and had it adjusted by my most excellent tech. Still she wrestles with the instrument, trying to get the high end to voice properly. Two months ago, she started playing sax, and there she wrestles with the low end of the scale.
The alto clarinet is much quieter than a soprano clarinet. It would seem to me that if you had them in a band or orchestra, you would need at least two to be heard.
Jim and Suzy
Pacifica Big Band
Seattle, Washington
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-09-05 20:38
Joanne - CONGRATS, I predict you and your tech will have a lot of fun, not too much frustration [hopefully] with your alto, sounds VERY interesting, almost of museum-collection character !! Double Register Keying on any larger cls I've seen requires P&P [patience and persistance] in being adjusted to a good playing condition. Can you measure its bore size, so we can compare it with my small-bore Selmer and others {Leblanc etc}. Is its pitch imprinted on it? Its calling for a Basset mp makes me wonder if it is in Eb or F !! If Arnold [our B H] expert reads this, hopefully he will comment and inform you of German technology of that time period. Would sure like to see and inspect, perhaps play, it. Enjoy ! Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: joannew
Date: 2005-09-05 21:18
Attachment: Uebel1.JPG (28k)
Attachment: Uebel2.JPG (15k)
Attachment: Uebel3.JPG (22k)
Don:
Inside diameter at the bottom of the crook looks like 17mm, and bottom of the one piece body about 21mm. No pitch indications on the horn, but Bassetthorn (with 2 t's) is stamped clearly on the mouthpiece, along with a serial number and the FAU logo. My tuner calibrated to 442 swings about wildly and can't decide whether my written C is E or E flat, so I guess that puts it at a high pitch E flat. Top & bottom of the body are marked with: logo / F ARTHUR UEBEL / HARKKEUKIRCHEN. In the case I found a slip of paper printed in that purple ink of the pre-Xerox photocopy technology: Es-Alt-Saxophon Schnur / 2.0 echt Dederon. (Any Germans lurking here?). It is definitely not a saxophone, I can tell you that! I have attached the seller's pictures, and although I can't lay my hands on a digital camera at the moment, will try add close ups in the future if you are interested.
Gandalfe:
Although I've fantasized about freelancing on alto in orchestras, during 4 years of youth orchestra and another 4 of semi-pro orchestra I have never yet come across call for an alto clarinet. And the high pitch issue precludes most ensemble playing, unless we can amass a clarinet choir of HP instruments (I have a nice old Albert system HP soprano...). This is really for my own enjoyment (not necessarily that of my neighbours!), and I took a crack at my Bach cello suites in the bass clarinet arrangement. Should be an interesting study!
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Author: ron b
Date: 2005-09-05 21:37
I can speak only for myself, Joanne, when I say I love my alto clarinet 
A not-too-widely-known 'secret' [shhhh...] is that it's not the instrument... it's the *player* who makes the music.
- r![[cool]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/cool.gif) n b -
__________________________________________________
P.S. --
[ "Es alt. saxophon - schnur" looks to me like: Eb alt. saxophone string ??? ] that's an odd one to me, maybe ref. to a neckstrap? Where's our German friend ?
Post Edited (2005-09-05 21:47)
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Author: joannew
Date: 2005-09-05 21:56
I see now from Uebel's website that they are based in Markneukirchen, and have been since great-great-great grandfather Uebel. I must have mis-read the inscription, the font is a bit cryptic.
(ron b, your secret is safe with me!)
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Author: javier garcia m
Date: 2005-09-06 13:31
According to the picture is a Reformed Boehm system (double F#/C# pad), do you have more info about it?
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-09-06 14:44
Hi again Joanne, - I finally got around to re-measuring my Selmer B series, alto cl, been having computer/AOL problems !! The ID of the neck's bottom, most easily reachable with my calipers, and it is 16.70 mm and as I recall it is the same at the lower tenon of the U J [cylindrical] and prob the same until the flare [for low note tuning?] near the bottom L J tenon. It's very definitely an Eb ALTO, but its smaller ID [than other altos] "to me" gives a more Bassett Horn sound. As I also recall, the [true] B H's ID s [minimum] are in the 15+ to lower 16 mm range, a bit more than our "big bore" sop. Bb's at 15.0; and with a B H mp [or Bb] , and Bassett length, produce that characteristically-different sound. My slight familiarity with B H's are of French-made, not German, which, I believe, in their Bbs, are somewhat larger ID s. Javier's observation of [possible] Reformed Boehm character [back in the 40's??] will cause me to find some pics in Brymer et al to compare with yours, TKS, VELLY INTERESTING, Research !! Help, Arnold and Al Rice and others, pliz, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: joannew
Date: 2005-09-06 15:25
A quick websearch tells me that Selmer's current basset horn is 15.8mm and their alto 17mm, and Leblanc's basset and alto both 18mm. Buffet & Yamaha don't say. I don't know what is the standard place to take the measurement - top of the main body? My measurements are with just a tape measure (2 sig figs only!), and the seller told me 16mm - again I don't know where the measurement was taken.
It seems that there are true basset-bore bassets (Selmer) and alto-bore bassets (Leblanc), but never before heard of a basset-bore alto!
Any other features I should look for to identify a reform-Boehm system?
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-09-06 16:26
J - TKS for doing some "bore, definitely not boring! to me!" research. I made a quickie search in our BB archives, Reform Boehm brings up quite a few hits, Alto Reform Boehm, only 3 ?Try BH?. There may be "more gold" out there. I'd suggest checking some of it, and likely contacting Uebel, you might get a lot !! I had been to the Deutsches Museum in Munich [Munchen] a few years ago, and have a copy of their Blasinstrumente catalog, my minimal German struggles, tho. I will look to see if they have a web site, hopefully with list/catalog/trans. They show on pages 86/87 [1980 ed.] descr./pics of a couple [1900s], a BH and an altkl in F !!!, not Uebels tho and several older BH's. Our "good books" by Baines and Rendall are worth looking into. I recently got, on library loan, "The Oboe and Bassoon" by Joppig, trying to identify my old [1850] simple-system [Ger] English Horn, but it doesen't extend to clarinets tho. I'm quite sure there are German texts on cls, perhaps more recent than Altenberg [sp?]. More research?, Al Rice, HELP, TKS. 'Nuff for now? Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: joannew
Date: 2005-09-06 21:03
My bookshelf includes Brymer & Lawson, neither of which list reform boehm in the index, but thanks to an archive post of yours Don, found the page references quickly enough! Not much detail of keywork in either, however. My tech (who has yet to see this masterpiece) has a recent-looking german book which may be useful (and which BTW has a picture of that Thibouville adjustable-lay mouthpiece we discussed earlier), although my german is likewise minimal. I will pay him a visit one of these days.
The differences in key setup between this horn and my R13 Bb:
Double register key mechanism, with both toneholes opening on the side of the instrument.
F/C key closes 2 pads, as pointed out by Javier (which is why from the photo I mistook it for having a low Eb), although the tonehole uncovered by the F#/C# key is only a fraction of a mm lower than the one closed by the lower F/C key - seems a bit picky!
The ring key mechanisms are a bit more complicated, but some alterations are necessary to accommodate hand size (I don't have another low clarinet for comparison on hand). Thumb & L1 are rings behaving as normal, closing the tonehole under the A key. L2 (plateau key) closes also the pad under the L3 plateau, while L3 closes two lower pads simultaneously. So each of L1-3 closes 2 toneholes. The C#/G# key opens a tonehole at a level almost identical with the lowest hole closed by L3. R1&2 rings are attached, also closing the tonehole above as usual, as well as the hole under the L2 plateau, using a secondary rod above the main one to act independently of the hole under L3. R3 is a separate plateau without a tonehole underneath, but closes a lower tonehole on the side, and also activates R1&2 if not already closed. And another 4 adjustment screws for good measure.
So, can we nominate a semi-reform boehm designation?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-09-06 21:22
Were the Uebel Basset Horns that were made in Boehm system similar to this alto in terms of bore and keywork (apart from the obvious fact the bassets went to low C) - and bell?
I remember they were listed in Bill Lewington's catalogue in about 1987, along with dirt cheap Parrot alto flutes (Moennig copies, but out of much softer metal - brass!) and some remaining 1010s - and at that time Lewington was pretty much the sole importer/distributor of Yamaha and Leblanc (the 'O' in Lewington containing the Yamaha logo) in the UK.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2005-09-06 21:24)
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-09-06 21:57
Fine descript - J, It sure sounds much like the plateau keying system [upper and lower "stacks"] of my Selmer 33 Bass cl [1960+] except for the D R Keying mechanisms, my higher vent is on the neck. Guess we could call it a "shotgun marriage" of interesting parentage??. The DE Museum has websites, but without translation help, I couldn't get around. Tried their Katalog without success. Dont know where we can go from here, maybe need pro help ??, as asked for. Luck, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: joannew
Date: 2005-09-06 22:14
I would like to inquire directly from the source, but haven't been able to find an email address for Uebel.
Maybe we can get the attention of the early clarinet list members, always a wealth of knowledge there too.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-09-07 13:27
Joanne - Your well-written Post on Early Clarinet should attract comments from a number of pros/collectors, and "folk" like me. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Malcolm Martland
Date: 2005-09-07 13:44
Joannew, did you try?
F. Arthur Uebel
Klarinettenmanufaktur
Klingenthaler Str. 8
08258 Markneukirchen
http://www.f-arthur-uebel.de
I could not find an email address either and you need to be able to read german.
I bid for this alto too but it went way too high for me.
Malcolm
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Author: joannew
Date: 2005-09-09 06:16
Here is some information I received from early clarinet expert Albert Rice:
What a lovely and fascinating instrument! The shape is very similar to some clarinets d'amour; most have a curved brass neck with bulb-shaped bells but a few have straight bells. ... I would guess that your instrument was made during the 1950s or possibly 1960s. Uebel was a very skilled and exacting maker as your observations indicate concerning the small tuning screws and well-made mechanism. This was certainly a result of Uebel study with Oehler, whose clarinets are really superb in workmanship. ...
According to "The New Langwill Index", and the F. Arthur Uebel site, www.f-arthur-uebel.de, Friedrich Arthur Uebel (1888-1963) trained under Oscar Oehler and became a specialist in clarinet making. He worked with his brother the instrument maker Gustaf Max Uebel in Wohlhausen and in 1936, after the death of this brother, established his own firm in Markneurkirchen. After his death in 1963 he nephews, Werner Uebel und G. Rudolf Uebel, headed the firm until 1972. ...
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-09-09 10:09
I remember the G.R. Uebel 'New Metal' flutes and piccolos - with one-piece aluminium bodies, black plastic reform lip plates and end caps, locking screws for the point screws similar to the ones on older Conn instruments but with heads on the locking screws.
There was a G.R. Uebel sax fingered oboe for sale here in the UK, but I never got the chance to bid on it.
Only interested me as I want to make a set of sax fingered oboe/cor anglais for myself so I can get around them a lot easier!
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Author: joannew
Date: 2005-09-10 08:31
More info is on the way from a german-made-reform-boehm expert, thanks to the EC list members.
In the meantime, I'm trying to make some music out of this beast, which will apparently take some very careful coaxing!
My first obvious trouble is with the angle of the mouthpiece. This never seemed to be an issue on bass clarinets, but here I feel like I'm pressing down extremely hard with my top teeth on the MP. I put a thin clear MP patch to prevent scratching, but think I will change to the medium black variety for a little more cushioning. I feel a very soft reed is in order too. Compared to my Greg Smith Bb MP, this one has quite a long facing, and the space between the rails seeems to be quite narrow, so more of the reed is in contact with the MP. Although the tenon size is the same as the Bb, the chamber is much bigger in the basset mp, being made of a thinner material, so they are physically but not acoustically interchangeable. I tried using the neckstrap rather than floor peg to adjust the angle of the horn a bit, but there isn't much room to move, without having my right hand too close in. Also tried the side-saddle method, with the MP and crook angled to hold the instrument sax-style, but the lower key pads then open against my leg. So it comes right back to embouchure adjustment. I checked out Vandoren's site to see if they made a basset MP in the profile 88 varitey, thinking that may feel more comfortable, but they don't make a basset mp at all. Does anyone?
Next I need to get some key oil into a couple of sluggish keys, then get to work on those adjustment screws and testing for leaks. Thunderstorms are in the forecast today, so what better way to spend a Saturday afternoon?
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-09-10 14:14
Joanne - A fine report-analysis of playing problems etc. I'm confident that Al Rice will give you more help, since he will be speaking re: the Cl'd'amore [in A? or G?] in Nov, {Herne, DE}. You might try to contact, Arnold The B H'ist , look him up in the BB Archives-Search posts. Re: mps, you might try contacting Pomarico in Italy, Riccardo was very helpful to me about a new crystal-glass mp for my Selmer Alto, which is great. If you can make some measurements of your mp's wind-cut and bore, I'd compare them to my alto and Bb mps, perhaps of some help to you. There is a MouthpieceWork YahooGroup where some of our mp experts, such as Walt Grabner et al post knowledgably on occasion ! Research is fascinating, ?right? Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: joannew
Date: 2005-09-10 17:02
The research is definitely half the fun, I agree!
I actually think this horn may provide good physical therapy for a TMJ issue that has been giving me difficulty lately - try teach the jaw that there is more than one viable position!
Here are more details on the MP for Don:
inside diameter 17mm, outside 22mm. Opening has a length of 32mm, measured to top of the arc including top rail (is this what you mean by wind-cut?) The opening is 8mm at bottom, 11mm at top, measured straight across. The flat surface is visibly narrower than my soprano G Smith mp, and with very straight edges, while the Smith has a more elegant curve. I don't have anything more accurate than a piece of paper & tape measure, but I'm guesstimating at a facing of 12mm, as opposed to the 10mm of the smith (does this sound reasonable?) Maybe german cut reeds are the key here - back to the search page!
Any more investment in this horn, including another MP, will have to wait a while, but it's nice to gather info and advice along the way. I will meet Ed Pillinger soon for MPs for my antiques, so will be sure to ask many questions!
Also a hint from Nick Shackleton: the extra tonehole covered by the F/C key is not enough to qualify this as a reform boehm design, as it was found on other models too, and like you said, Don, the ring key system is similar to other low boehm clarinets, only modified from the soprano system for size constraints.
thanks for the input everyone!
Joanne
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-09-10 18:27
Hi J - I'm a far way from expert on mps, I use Brymer's pg 110 "legend" of terminology,makes sense to me. My Pomarico ALTO # 3 [mellow, whatever that means, its soft !] about 1-2 years in my hands, has tenon dia. of 16.75 mm, tapering to 16.65, 16 mm "in". My wind cut length, bottom of "its curve" to interior tip edge is 36 mm, widths, above btm. curve 10 mm, near tip between rails 13 mm. Mp "lay curve" is 20 mm [measured by copy paper "sticking" between dry reed and glass, to tip of reed [at tip]. Believe my tip opening is a bit above 1 mm, Prob. Pom's web site will give this accurately. On it I use alto sax reeds, prefer LaVoz med [3's?]. It seems this is a bit larger than yours, Aren't Germans a bit larger than Fr's ? I like Bonade, Luyben and "inverted" Rovner ligs for a "somewhat" Basset Horn tonality. I usually check for table "flattness" of plastic/HR mps, but not on glasses even using very fine emery paper/cloth !! Lots of detail, hope it helps with Ed P !! I agree with Nick S [another true expert] re: the F/C pad pair, it may have derived from the 1800's Patent C#!, but here for improved venting for the low G/D usually needed on the better [Sel] bass cls. Have lots of fun with these challenges, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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