 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2005-08-31 23:00
Next week we’re playing an all American program including the suite from West Side Story. I’ve been surprised in the past how well my orchestra plays the jazzy bits in this piece. I’ve heard so many bad examples of this piece being played so stiff so it has been unbearable. Why is it that classical orchestras have such difficulties playing jazz as well as baroque music? It seems like there is a worldwide lack of education in stylistic values about music in general other than the so called “romantic” era and even then they use too much vibrato. It’s sad!
Alphie
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-09-01 10:23
I'm doing West Side Story at the end of September - and the swingy or jazzy parts are written out in 12/8, which is a pain for me as I prefer them in 4/4 but swing the quavers.
Some problems with 'straight' players is that they either play the quavers dead straight, or play them all dotted - rather than swung, which makes everything feel very 'yatty tatty', or indeed 'stiff' as Alphie rightfully puts it.
I do play Baroque as well, and do like to pull things around a lot where I can, especially in Adagios where I like to do something different when the main theme comes around, or elaborating the tune in the repeats or on DC.
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2005-09-01 11:56
There is a strong resemblance between "swung" rhythms in jazz, and notes inégales in baroque performance practice. Of course, we don't know how much rhythmical freedom was expected in the baroque, but it seems reasonable to suppose that notes inégales didn't just mean to play a metronomic dotted or compound-time rhythm.
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If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-09-01 12:08
I ought to read Quanz's book as that's pretty in-depth, I keep meaning to get a copy.
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Author: Don Poulsen
Date: 2005-09-01 15:26
If it is truly the case that orchestras have difficulty with swinging rhythms, perhaps it's because string players rarely play jazz. I would assume that nearly all wind and percussion players would know how to do it (especially those on the professional level), as they would have had more chances to play jazz in non-orchestral settings.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-09-01 15:36
No, plenty of wind players play jazz style poorly.
Really unfortunate, but true.
And if you've ever had the misfortune to hear Pavoritti sing a contemporary pop style song, you can sympathize.
OVER ENUNCIATED
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2005-09-01 19:52
A lot of opera folks who try to sing something outside of their genre have that problem. It's not just fat Italian folks.
There's a perception in the "non-musical" world that, just because you're a musician, you automatically can play all styles/genre/whatever. With wind players, because of the crossovers between pop, country, jazz, swing, kletzmer and whatever, it's much closer to true than it is with the string folks. But, even wind players can have trouble with the "swing" metaphor.
Young kids generally get it when you explain it in the 12/8 or triplet form. (However, I agree that the "two tied, one articulated triplet form" of notation is _very_ irritating to read for any length of time.) It's like a light goes on when they finally do see what they're supposed to do.
But, some others never really loosen up. I had a dyed in the wool concert band trombone guy a year or so back. He was great in a technical sense on the horn except that he didn't understand the genre. There are so many ways to indicate swing that it can be confusing if you've not dealt with it before, but in his case he was just concert band material and nothing else.
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: allencole
Date: 2005-09-01 23:55
Much of this stylistic problem is that the musicians who have the problem were educated by players who didn't know and/or respect the style. This situation does seem to be improving, though. (pit gigs may be much of the driving force)
Similarly, I didn't know until I was an adult about the 'Viennesse afterbeat' in waltzes. My previous teachers either didn't encounter it, or more likely didn't place any particular importance on it.
If reading musicans have one great weakness, it is probably dependence on reading ability to substitute for knowledge of styles and repertoire.
Allen Cole
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-09-02 05:45
'Viennese afterbeat'? - Is that where the 2nd beat is played slightly early, but the third beat is still played on the beat?
I did a Strauss concert (sadly not Richard Strauss) a while back and noticed the Waltz rhythm was like that in some pieces, makes it feel slightly sluggish rather than the crisp, on-the-beat Waltz rhythm.
But playing in Big Bands has done a power of good where syncopation goes as I can recognise these rhythms straight away, one orchestral concert I did had the Bliss - 'Things To Come' march where there were single off-beat shot notes (on beat 3.5) followed by some syncopated chords (not unlike the kind Bernstein uses) - I watched the players that were unprepared for them, and how they flinched as they misplaced them (usually on the beat or the following beat) when the majority of players (especially the brass) went for the sfz with force.
What was the final line in that film - 'Which shall it be'?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2005-09-02 05:45)
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2005-09-02 17:26
What I think is very sad is that there is such a lack of curiosity among classical musicians to find out more about styles they don’t master. Personally I always feel very uncomfortable playing something that I feel is not within the bloodstream yet. For me that feeling occur mainly if we have to play a brand new contemporary piece by some composer I’ve never heard of before and there is not enough rehearsal time to get a feel for the music. I can feel desperate not knowing what to do with it. In case I have something exposed I usually try to ask the composer what his/her expectations are.
How musicians can sit on their orchestral chairs year after year and not even care enough to at least ask colleagues who are more experienced in a certain style about which approach they should have to get some inspiration, or listen to records by people who know how to play is for me a mystery. There is so much music within the standard repertoire inspired by jazz, ethnic and folk music, not to talk about Viennese style, baroque- and classical interpretation. In contemporary music we can very often ask the composer him/herself. But most people just don’t care.
Alphie
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Author: Shorthand
Date: 2005-09-02 22:25
Honestly I learned to play Jazz rhythms decently as a result of high school marching band as opposed to pit gigs. (Not that I've done pit gigs.) I think that's true for many, many wind players that grew up in Texas.
The other thing that's embarrassing is hearing some orchestras play Hispanic themed pieces. I remember visiting Philadelphia and hearing a completely accurate but pain-inducing rendition of Copland's Rodeo on the radio.
The situation has gotten much better as the Hispanic-inspired serious repertoire has grown over the last few decades, but if you don't live close enough to the border to be exposed to decent Mariachi its tough to know what to do. I was lucky to have a high school director who was half Hispanic, grew up in the Rio Grande valley, and explained to us the particular characteristics of the Gitaron so that we could learn to simulate it. Its a lesson that has served me well for years.
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Author: allencole
Date: 2005-09-03 18:59
Yes, Chris, that's the Viennesse afterbeat. I was surprised that they didn't try to notate it more accurately, but again this is what learning styles is all about.
Before playing under a German director, I thought that all you needed for a German band was a set of Hungry Five books. But confronting a more authentic situation showed me that you have to become knowledgeable not just about style but also about repertoire.
And I should've known this. It's true in jazz, it's true in western, it's true in dixieland and it's true in bluegrass. And or course, we can add a lot of other styles to this list. Most pop band hire subs on the basis of "whether they know the tunes or not." This works well because most folks who have bothered to learn the tunes, have probably picked up the style. A lot of folks can say they know the style, but you have to wonder about this if they don't know the standard songs.
This might be a good rule of thumb to follow for folks who have the task of familiarizing themselves with new styles.
Allen Cole
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Author: 3dogmom
Date: 2005-09-03 19:07
I can remember back to undergraduate school and the absolute snobbiness of most of the music majors toward any, I mean any, music that wasn't classical. Ever. We had an awesome jazz band, but those players were really thought of as "out there". I was lucky enough to follow up by going to North Texas State, excuse me, University of North Texas, where jazz is right up there with classical. If I hadn't, though, I would have had no training in jazz styles.
Again, and I sound like a broken record, when you do it with kids, they just take to it so easily. And they love it!
Sue Tansey
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